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Johnny Appleseed
24th September 2005, 03:35 PM
This might not be the most objective community in which to pose this question, but here goes ...

The Mac has been making dramatic market share gains in recent quarters, and now accounts for over 3% (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp) of computers on the Internet. But with the hype surrounding Windows Vista and its "breakthrough" features, will this growth slow or even reverse? Will prospective switchers, and even current Mac users, think Windows has caught up?

dangelovich
24th September 2005, 04:16 PM
People will see Vista for the fraud it is.
Once the Intel macs come out, market share will increase.

By the time Vista is ready, we'll be sitting on Leopard... which will no doubt make Vista look like a poorly written "Hello World" app.

Johnny Appleseed
24th September 2005, 04:18 PM
Hrm, maybe I should've added a "Mac growth will accelerate" option!

;)

Phillip
24th September 2005, 05:10 PM
I think the Mac will be uneffected.

People buy Macs for a number of reasons, namely, Mac OS X and its UNIX foundation, iLife, Final Cut Studio and other Mac apps, and the design and aesthetics of the hardware. None of which is going to change when Longhorn comes out.

People who think Apple is going down because Vista is coming must be smoking something. Who says Apple can't 'catch-up' (as Steve likes to call 'getting ideas from other companies') with Microsoft? Apple knew Microsoft was developing something like Spotlight for Vista, but like manage to ship it in Mac OS X first. Maybe we will get more features that were planned for Vista in Leopard. Only time will tell.

The Fluffy Duck
24th September 2005, 05:41 PM
Most PC developers dont like vista as Opengl programs run poorly. MS is trying to convert everybody to directx. I can see alot more developers making support for both mac and PC in the near future.

BUt you will always have the year 9 kids that cant play counter strike on a mac therefore they suck metality. Unfortunatly this is a big problem and wont easily be overcome.

I just brought a a new PC duel core system. the reason why is becasue PC desktops are way faster for 3d graphics. Sorry its true. But I would still have an apple laptop anyday of the week beccasue they are so darn stable.

Rayd
24th September 2005, 05:48 PM
got to be unafected, by the time vista comes out mac os x will be at 10.6 lion :)

notb4dinner
24th September 2005, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by The Fluffy Duck@Sep 24 2005, 05:41 PM
Most PC developers dont like vista as Opengl programs run poorly.
eh? Most PC developers couldn't care less about OpenGL or DirectX.

xfodder
24th September 2005, 06:33 PM
i still doubt thats macs will ever overtake the PC market share.

macs just aren't build for gaming, this might change when the new intel macs arrive, but until there is a wide range of developers making games for the mac, i don't see things changing very soon.

but hopefully with the new intel macs, the business world will see that macs can be used for business purposes.

Johnny Appleseed
24th September 2005, 07:03 PM
I know several PC users who are now willing to try the Mac now they know it will also run Windows. Hopefully they'll spend more and more time in Mac OS X and less and less time in Windows.

But yeah, we can't really expect the Mac to beat Windows. If it can get to 10% market share that would be enough to secure its future.

cmetom
24th September 2005, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by dangelovich@Sep 24 2005, 04:16 PM
People will see Vista for the fraud it is.
Once the Intel macs come out, market share will increase.

By the time Vista is ready, we'll be sitting on Leopard... which will no doubt make Vista look like a poorly written "Hello World" app.

Hello Wold
:thumbup:


i agree

iluvmymactoo
24th September 2005, 07:13 PM
Apparently Bill has decided to once again rename their new OS.

Vista will be trademarked as Vespa mainly because that's about as fast as it will run. :P

gelfie
24th September 2005, 07:20 PM
I think just about everyone in the tech industry, windows proponents included, are rather underwhelmed with Vista. It's nothing like Microsoft promised, and its a long way off schedule.

If anything I think it may not sell particularly well even to windows users. How many XP users are really going to upgrade, when a lot of the fun stuff is going to be back ported to XP anyway?

Microsoft are smarting over Vista already, and if they're not preparing to hurt a lot more, they should be.

iluvmymactoo
24th September 2005, 07:36 PM
From what I understand there are no current pc's on the market that will even run Vista :blink: Is that right?

feeze
24th September 2005, 08:02 PM
Hmmm, I'm not sure about that, considering that there are already people running betas. Although I am not sure if they are running it with all the bells and whistles, i.e. Aero Glass etc.

Squozen
24th September 2005, 08:29 PM
It'll run fine as long as you have enough RAM and CPU juice. Like OS X, the graphics will scale back if your video card isn't up to snuff.

Of course, it will still suck.

decryption
24th September 2005, 10:01 PM
The thing that shits me is all the DRM being placed into Vista. You need a DRM compliant monitor in order to view DRM video, or a HD-DVD drive that is DRM compliant to run a disc.

This is the kind of shit I'm talking about - http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/har.../hdcp-vista.ars (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/hardware/hdcp-vista.ars) and http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000143050582/ - Direct from the horses mouth here - http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/strea...ut_protect.mspx (http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/stream/output_protect.mspx) -

"Output Content Protection Management " is what will make users run to Mac, maybe :P

notb4dinner
24th September 2005, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by iluvmymactoo+Sep 24 2005, 07:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (iluvmymactoo &#064; Sep 24 2005, 07:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> From what I understand there are no current pc&#39;s on the market that will even run Vista :blink: Is that right? [/b]
A mate of mine is running a beta on a (admittedly fairly highly specced) laptop without any major dramas, so I&#39;m going to go ahead and say that no that isn&#39;t right.
<!--QuoteBegin-feeze@Sep 24 2005, 08:02 PM
Hmmm, I&#39;m not sure about that, considering that there are already people running betas. Although I am not sure if they are running it with all the bells and whistles, i.e. Aero Glass etc.[/quote]The version I&#39;ve seen does *some* 3D accelerated desktop stuff although I don&#39;t know if it&#39;s the complete deal.

Johnny Appleseed
25th September 2005, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by xfodder@Sep 24 2005, 06:33 PM
but hopefully with the new intel macs, the business world will see that macs can be used for business purposes.
That&#39;s a good point. My employer has gone from Digital to Compaq to HP (as each has been consumed). The number of big-name PC makers is dwindling. If Apple is one of the last ones standing (suplemented by its monopoly on the Mac platform) it could become an attractrive proposition for corporations, even if they want to run Windows.

akaddk
25th September 2005, 01:46 AM
I have recently had two significant revelations about Apple computers and software.

The first came when I realized I actually wanted a Mac Mini despite it&#39;s piss-poor stats. The realization was that people don&#39;t buy Mac&#39;s solely for performance. It&#39;s great when Apple is on the top of the bell curve performance-wise and we can all sneer at our PC peers, but let&#39;s face it, that&#39;s a pretty darn slippery slope and changes practically on a day to day basis.

People buy Macs primarily for the OS.

The second realization was when I bought my iBook just a couple of days ago. After getting it home and having an initial setup hiccup (needed a firewire cable asap, thought I could use ethernet for the Mac to Mac transfer), everything was roses. It was just a really pleasant experience. And everything about the iBook is just so... well done. From the little light on the power connector, to the scrolling trackpad and OS integration, it&#39;s all just a wonderful feeling to actually enjoy the computer you get without having any hassles to spoil it.

So, people buy Macs for the Mac experience.

It&#39;s these two things which have convinced me that long in the ass Vista-horn, despite the inevitable aggressive marketing campaigns, will fail to impress. Apple is not only gaining market share, but more importantly, it&#39;s gaining MIND share. Even uber-PC heads are beginning to turn their heads and notice Macs. Heck, I only just sold my Mini to a die-hard PC-fiend the other day so that I could afford the iBook :)

Johnny Appleseed
25th September 2005, 09:49 AM
Lately Bill Gates has been sounding off on "me too" products from Apple and Google. Anyone seen the transparency overkill in Vista? It&#39;s the ultimate "me too".

impact_blue
25th September 2005, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Johnny Appleseed@Sep 25 2005, 12:05 AM
That&#39;s a good point. My employer has gone from Digital to Compaq to HP (as each has been consumed). The number of big-name PC makers is dwindling. If Apple is one of the last ones standing (suplemented by its monopoly on the Mac platform) it could become an attractrive proposition for corporations, even if they want to run Windows.
But take a look at actual market share on system sales - Apple isn&#39;t exactly up there against HP/Compaq and Dell - they are no where near that level of market share. Its not that Mac&#39;s can&#39;t do that type of work - its simply that currently a lot of corporations are wanting wintel boxes.... Even an OSXTel box still aint a wintel box... I don&#39;t really see how sticking an Intel processor into a mac is going to change that really...

Maticks
25th September 2005, 11:04 AM
windows vista is just mac osx really.
look what they&#39;ve changed in it.
the search system is the same as spotlight with just a windows logo.
the client&#39;s home directories are now C:Users/Username

And its now Documents,Fav,Movies,Music in the home directory.

Johnny Appleseed
25th September 2005, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by impact_blue@Sep 25 2005, 10:46 AM
But take a look at actual market share on system sales - Apple isn&#39;t exactly up there against HP/Compaq and Dell - they are no where near that level of market share.
Yeah, but what&#39;s the point of having a big market share if you can&#39;t turn a profit? IBM sold off its PC business because it was losing money. HP might have 20% share but there are doubts it will continue in the PC business because its margins are so thin. Even Dell&#39;s profit forecast is down, and it&#39;ll be at the mercy of Lenovo when it starts to get serious. That&#39;s the trouble with Wintel PCs becoming commodified.

Ironically, being a closed platform up till now has actually insulated Apple from the PC price wars. And the Macintels will have the added value of being the only boxes that run both Mac OS X and Windows. If Apple is one of the few remaining name-brand PC box makers it might have a decent run at the enterprise.

Johnny Appleseed
28th September 2005, 11:57 PM
Just fishing for another wave of votes ...

hawker
29th September 2005, 01:07 AM
Vista is Windows, and Windows is shit. nuff said&#33;

xfodder
29th September 2005, 01:09 AM
actually thats a good point about pc makers, over the past 10 years things have changed alot, HP and compaq joined, gateway folded, dell went up and is now falling back down. the majority of pc&#39;s are home-brew from all different makers, i have never bought a pre-packaged pc, thats why i was iffy about buying macs for so long, that was until i realized that everything was made by apple (hardware & software).

the biggest problem with PC&#39;s is compatibility, there is just too much stuff made by too many different companies, at least with apple, developers know what type of machines will be running their software or using their devices.

notb4dinner
29th September 2005, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by hawker@Sep 29 2005, 01:07 AM
Vista is Windows, and Windows is shit. nuff said&#33;
What a compelling argument... :rolleyes:

marc
29th September 2005, 08:06 AM
I think this is a very difficult question to answer until we actually know what the release version of Vista looks like, and what Apple are up to at the point of release.

Due to the effort involved, OS X will have to be *a lot* better to make corporates switch. Also, the iPod halo effect will continue to grow.

It&#39;s funny, but there&#39;s still a massive disinterest (read: disliking) of Apple by some people and there&#39;s still heaps of antiquated myths floating around. Some of the most common are that you can&#39;t have PCs and Macs on the same network without big issues ect. I think it&#39;s going to take a while for that to disappear.

I really see OS X growing from its strong markets. Ie creative and scientific fields.

I also think Apple really need to start providing support and service on par with Dell etc. As much as I hate Dell&#39;s product, their support is excellent.

These things take time.

Johnny Appleseed
29th September 2005, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by marc@Sep 29 2005, 08:06 AM
there&#39;s still heaps of antiquated myths floating around.
Yeah, like Macs don&#39;t do Internet or e-mail, or Microsoft Office (when in fact Word, Excel and PowerPoint have been on the Mac longer than they&#39;ve been on Windows).

And even though a friend of mine knew there was an Office for Mac, he bought a PC because somehow he thought Macs still couldn&#39;t share files with PCs.

Bart Smastard
29th September 2005, 12:55 PM
I would have like to vote that Vista&#39;s release WILL affect Mac growth - by actually increasing sales. However, without that option (and waking to reality) I voted "no affect".

Our friends the malware creators have done Apple a great service by irritating Windows users so much with their nasty little wares that some are seeking sanctuary in OS X... and finding they actually prefer it there.

If Apple have any nous they would be plugging the Macs everywhere they can, RIGHT NOW&#33;&#33;&#33;

Instead they&#39;ll spend a packet on one campaign to be shown during the NFL final. Then release the IntelMacs with only a tinsy bit of fanfare (a la Mac mini). Six months later, along will come Microsoft with their "long awaited" Vista and a huge media blitz and gobble up those potential Mac converts without Apple even realising they had existed.

Please prove me wrong Apple. You already have the most desired portable music player. At least have a go at attracting desire for your OS and computers.

Everyone sees the halo, but not all see the deity beneath it.

Currawong
29th September 2005, 02:06 PM
It&#39;s not that there aren&#39;t many talented people in Microsoft that could produce fantastic software products, it&#39;s the psychotic upper management that would rather FUD, bully and market their way into power than actually spend money and time on producing something really GOOD.

Rodney9
29th September 2005, 05:04 PM
V virus I infested S spyware T trojan A adware

trickcycle
29th September 2005, 05:44 PM
My understanding is that Vista is a long way off before general release. So Apple has time to innovate the next version of OSX. Vista is promising features OSX has had for ages.

Latest copy of Roam (Australian Windows centric laptop computer mag) has a story on running a developer version of Tiger on a Centrino notebook with good results.

ETHERSPIN
29th September 2005, 07:27 PM
yeah it will slow switchers, at least the few who switched from being bored and fed up with XP , but apple will take a few more with leopard and steadily continue to grow from itunes, ipod etc causing good exposure

Currawong
29th September 2005, 08:08 PM
If anything, Apple will be unaffected. What has made the difference to Apple&#39;s market share is producing computers that are quality machines at a reasonable price. The well known reason people have switched to Apple has been Mac OS X. Add some cool-running, stylish and powerful hardware into the mix and you have a combination that PC makers STILL wont try to match.

PC manufacturers have the benefit of a large, ignorant public. There are so many clueless people who buy computers every day - they just walk into places such as my work and ask what&#39;s available. As most retailers would find incorporating Apple&#39;s gear into that, and training all the schoolkids who fill in time working in these places who don&#39;t give more than a shit, Apple will, as usual, be left fighting FUD and ignorance. Vista will just be another Microsoft wank which will change little.

ETHERSPIN
29th September 2005, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by iluvmymactoo@Sep 24 2005, 07:36 PM
From what I understand there are no current pc&#39;s on the market that will even run Vista :blink: Is that right?
recommended specs are 2gb of ram, a 256mb vid card,pci express compatible motherboard, dual core cpu or up ..
pretty hefty, hey guys dont forget that this windows has a high level of eye candy for windows users.. it may impress more than the 2000 to xp jump..
i dont think it will take long to die down..

Phillip
29th September 2005, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by ETHERSPIN@Sep 29 2005, 09:24 PM
recommended specs are 2gb of ram, a 256mb vid card,pci express compatible motherboard, dual core cpu or up ..
And that is from?


My understanding is that Vista is a long way off before general release. So Apple has time to innovate the next version of OSX.

By the end if next year. About 12 months to go.

nicwithsticks
29th September 2005, 11:59 PM
I won&#39;t bash Windows, because I use it. Sure, not on a daily basis like I use OS X, and it&#39;s not as fun to use and I&#39;m more comfortable with OS X.

Sure Microsoft is behind with Vista, and it&#39;s looking a bit shabby right now. I have used every alpha and beta release of it out there (back when it was Longhorn) and it isn&#39;t great right now. But don&#39;t fool yourelves, these release bear little resemblence to the final build.

Everybody innovates, even Microsoft. We&#39;d be fullish to think MS isn&#39;t busting their gut&#39;s to get an awesome product. 10.5 should be awesome, but I can&#39;t say I wont be interested in what MS spewes out next.

Apple&#39;s Market share? Who knows. But it&#39;s looking great for us right now, that&#39;s for sure.

trickcycle
30th September 2005, 03:01 AM
Roam magazine claims to have run the developer version of Tiger on a "brand name" notebook with a 2Ghz Pentium M and 512Mb RAM. That&#39;s pretty standard for the current crop of Centrino notebooks. They say they booted the notebook off an Ubuntu CD and then installed the Tiger on a clean disk. They reckoned performance was "on par witha mid-range Powerbook G4" and it ran standard OSX apps.

So if the story is true Tiger is definitely ready for Intel machines&#33;&#33;

Johnny Appleseed
30th September 2005, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by trickcycle@Sep 30 2005, 03:01 AM
So if the story is true Tiger is definitely ready for Intel machines&#33;&#33;
Yeah, but don&#39;t expect Apple to license out Mac OS X anytime soon. And I&#39;m sure Leopard will be much harder to hack than the current developer builds.

nicwithsticks
30th September 2005, 10:33 AM
People have hacked the developer copy of OS X to run on standard PC hardware. A lot of them can&#39;t get sound, network or graphics accelleration to work and so complain about speed and performance. Apple has since issued a 10.4.2 update to block the pirates.

You can bet your ass though that Apple will be enforcing strict anti-piracy methods in the final shipping universal binary of Tiger, and then Leopard. Sure, people might hack it, but It&#39;ll only ever limp along when compared to a real Mac, and it wont be anywhere near as good.

stevejay
30th September 2005, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by dangelovich@Sep 24 2005, 04:16 PM
People will see Vista for the fraud it is.
Once the Intel macs come out, market share will increase.

By the time Vista is ready, we&#39;ll be sitting on Leopard... which will no doubt make Vista look like a poorly written "Hello World" app.
Mactel will especially boost Mac sales if Apple embeds its own build of Wine in the finder, enabling most Windows apps to run native without windows.

And yeh, Leopard, yum&#33;

Currawong
30th September 2005, 08:27 PM
There&#39;s a very interesting article, Microsoft Windows Officially Broken (http://www.smartofficenews.com.au/Computing/Platforms_And_Applications?article=/Computing/Platforms%20And%20Applications/News/E5T7U6H8&page=1) which reveals much about why many of the touted features of Vista have disappeared. Sounds like MS might be getting a tiny clue.

Johnny Appleseed
3rd October 2005, 01:48 AM
Vote vote vote&#33;&#33;

Johnny Appleseed
10th October 2005, 11:08 AM
Fishing for more votes ...

new2mac
10th October 2005, 12:44 PM
May I play devil&#39;s advocate for a moment.
As I&#39;m struggling to see the balance in this debate.

Are we comparing OS X to Vista?
Or are we comparing Apple (a hardware company) to Microsoft ( a software company)?

Can I quickly say that yes; Mac is superior in hardware, OS, design and everything else right now. We no doubt all agree on this as would anyone who objectively compared the platforms.

Except of course in market share/dominance. That&#39;s important to a public company unless I&#39;m sorely mislead.

Having just read the latest Jobs biography can I throw in this spin on things;

We&#39;ve seen the recent successes of Ipod, mini, iWorks etc. The announcement of the Intel chip plans. And the intro of a MS like mouse.

Can it be that Mr Jobs is attempting to place Apple OSX as a not only viable substitute for MS in business environs but a cheap one too, ie buy the OS X software and install onto your current PC.

Can Apple become a software company?
Does Jobs really really want to best Gates (the guy that took away his position as the Worlds computing leader so many years ago)?

Does it matter if Vista is good or bad if at the same time Apple starts selling Leopard to the PC masses?

What if Leoprd allows seamless migration from a MS pltform?

Will Vista affect Apple&#39;s revival? Well doesn&#39;t it depend on Apple&#39;s strategic planning?

My vote is that Vista will increase the OSX market share (but not for the reasons you&#39;d think).


I could be wrong of course, maybe Jobs doesn&#39;t have the foresight, ambition, ego needed to take on MS. Yeah right&#33;

Johnny Appleseed
10th October 2005, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by new2mac@Oct 10 2005, 12:44 PM
Except of course in market share/dominance. That&#39;s important to a public company unless I&#39;m sorely misled.

Actually it&#39;s not as important as profit and growth, which is why Apple&#39;s share growth is blitzing the rest of the market right now. Even Dell is struggling to turn a profit despite its market share dominance.

The question should be answered on the basis that only Macs will run Leopard, as Apple has said this will be the case and it doesn&#39;t look like changing anytime soon. (The Mac is gaining market share without the need to license - yet).

tranp
10th October 2005, 05:32 PM
Like every other Windows release, it will NOT affect mac sales/growth at all. Actually, it may if it is a total flop, but I doubt that it will be.

I view Windows and Mac OS as being two completely different operating environments. I like features out of both of them, but I do have a preference for the Mac OS and will agree that it is a lot &#39;better&#39; than XP. That said, I will continue to use both platforms side by side.

Sambo
10th October 2005, 05:57 PM
hey you know apple may have the monopoly by the time longhorn is releases :P

pipsqeek
10th October 2005, 06:04 PM
Who cares.





My 2

new2mac
10th October 2005, 06:07 PM
I&#39;m sorry Johnny, but if Leopard was not going to run on PC, then why is OSX 86 (Tiger for Intel)allowed to roam free in the wild? Tiger is already on PC even if it&#39;s only in Geekdom for now.

Can Apple become a software company? Yes.
Afterall it&#39;s already transformed itself into a music company.

Johnny Appleseed
10th October 2005, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by new2mac@Oct 10 2005, 06:07 PM
Can Apple become a software company? Yes.
Afterall it&#39;s already transformed itself into a music company.
Of course it CAN become a software company, but WILL it? Not anytime soon, as it still makes most of its money from hardware sales. That&#39;s why it&#39;s opening a lot of retail stores in the US and other countries.

Just because hackers have gotten Tiger running on ordinary x86 boxes doesn&#39;t mean it will be the norm. Leopard will be harder to hack, and each point update will break any hacks that have succeeded. It basically won&#39;t be worth your while to run it on a generic box.

new2mac
10th October 2005, 08:28 PM
Ok Johnny I see your point. And part of me agrees.

I&#39;ll quietly hope that you&#39;ll see mine too.

Which in a nut shell is; I hope that one day the Cult of Mac will evolve into a full blown World wide Cult-ure of OSX (it is the best, I think).

I do agree with the &#39;who would want to drive OSX on a beige box&#39; veiw point.
But not everyone can afford to drive a Mercedes. Lots would like to though. How about we let people aspire to something slighty better than their current OS if not their machine.

How about a new Poll for you to start?
How about for those that don&#39;t work in a Mac space &#39;Could you or would you change your work place to OSX?&#39; or &#39;What would it take to change your work place to OSX?&#39;.

Personally I&#39;ve had this conversation alot lately with other business owners. I for one would change everything right now except I can&#39;t run my Point of Sale software on a Mac. Which is hateful.

Most businesses are concerned with security, stability, usability and compatability. Sounds mostly like a Mac to me. Except that compatability issue, which the MacIntels may just solve. What do you think?

:cmd:

Johnny Appleseed
10th October 2005, 08:45 PM
Don&#39;t get me wrong, I too would like to see OS X conquer Windows, and I think it&#39;s inevitable it will be licensed out (the move to Intel brings it one step closer). But Apple will try to maintain its profits on Macs as long as it can.

As for compatibility, what issues do you have? Macs are compatible with all the major file formats.

And which POS software are you using? There are several options available for Macs.

new2mac
10th October 2005, 10:22 PM
I think that the Apple hardware profits are largely due to the ipod. So as long as Jobs keeps his nose clean on this Apple will be fine.

Thats a good example though Johnny... the ipod has changed modern culture, not by a little either. Could or would OSX have the same outcome if it were to become more widely used? Me thinks yes.

So can or will Vista affect Mac growth? No, not if Jobs remains the brilliant visionary tomorrow that he has been to date. Remember too, he wants to best Gates (not has to) so he&#39;s motivated and brilliant. Thats scarey.

My point of sale software is a brilliant industry specific package called Shortcuts. Only runs/supported on PC (damn it).

Whats a good Mac POS and Mac database package? Maybe I could weild two of these to iCal and save myself lots of &#036;&#39;s. ;)

Johnny Appleseed
11th October 2005, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by tranp@Oct 10 2005, 05:32 PM
Like every other Windows release, it will NOT affect mac sales/growth at all.
Actually, Windows 95 nearly killed the Mac totally. It&#39;s been a long road back, but it seems Apple finally has the momentum again.

spy
11th October 2005, 06:17 AM
Best man wins. Consumers are not stupid.

new2mac
11th October 2005, 08:40 AM
;)

BTW good thread Johnny.

50+ replies. i&#39;ve got to say that this is a really clued up & interesting community.

I&#39;ll look forward to your next topic.

marc
11th October 2005, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by new2mac@Oct 10 2005, 10:22 PM
I think that the Apple hardware profits are largely due to the ipod. So as long as Jobs keeps his nose clean on this Apple will be fine.
Not true at all, and Apple were healthy pre-iPod. Please do some googling.

I can&#39;t see OS X running on stock PC boxes for a LONG time, if at all.

My view on this is that I really don&#39;t care if Apple gain a bigger market share. In fact, a bigger market share might mean a weaker product. I like that Apple is niche, seen as the underdog, but also is a very healthy company. I think it keeps them on their toes and stops them from being "evil". Right now I fell like Apple really cares about the things I care about... running the best OS, and the best hardware and software for creative apps.

This could quickly change if Apple had 20%+ market share, as they&#39;d be more mainstream, and I think it would affect their product in some way.

I know this has been said before, but I think the success of the iPod has taken some of the focus away from Mac R&D. That&#39;s a real shame, even though I love the iPod and what it represents (a brilliant design that&#39;s conquered a market... very rare).

marc
11th October 2005, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by spy@Oct 11 2005, 06:17 AM
Best man wins. Consumers are not stupid.
Beta vs VHS?

On-Site-Tec
11th October 2005, 11:30 AM
I think because of the unprofessional and the unexperienced computer user market Mac sales will fall. I think the majority of the computer market is used by people that have no idea what an any key is. Thats just what I think though.

For professional and savvy users Mac sales will grow more than they are now.

Matt.

Johnny Appleseed
11th October 2005, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by new2mac+Oct 11 2005, 08:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (new2mac &#064; Oct 11 2005, 08:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>BTW good thread Johnny.
[/b]
Thanks a lot&#33; :D

<!--QuoteBegin-marc@Oct 11 2005, 09:21 AM
Not true at all, and Apple were healthy pre-iPod. Please do some googling.
[/quote]
Actually I think you&#39;ll find Apple was barely breaking even on Macs before the iPod boom. Quite often it was using one-off asset sales to show a profit. Lately Mac sales have been on the rise, so the earnings have been healthier.

But I agree with the rest of your points. While being a closed platform has threatened Apple&#39;s survival in the past, lately it&#39;s actually insulated it from the PC price wars. The company is gonna wanna stretch out that advantage as long as it can.

iMick
11th October 2005, 12:01 PM
I was suprised when Tiger was released it was being compared with Vista (longhorn) instead of windows XP (tigers direct "equal"). How could people possible compare a shipped OS with something that was fishing for a release date&#33; Tiger should be compared with XP and Vista should be compared with Leopard (assuming they are released at the same time).

What was really scary for me was how Vista (longhorn) kept coming up short in the Tiger reviews. Shipped product was deemed by some as being more functional an unreleased next gen OS&#33; I reckon that was impressing MS no end :)

I don&#39;t think Vista will increase/decrease Mac sales. What it will do is lift the recognition of OSX which will hopefully lift apple as a whole. Particularly in the corporate world.

new2mac
11th October 2005, 02:42 PM
I agree iMick.

It has to be Tiger vs XP for fair comparison.

I use both constantly everyday and to me it&#39;s self evident that Tiger is superior for most things.

Leopard vs Vista. Who knows? I know who I&#39;ll bet on though :D

Johnny Appleseed
11th October 2005, 04:46 PM
Behold (http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=30941&category=main) the latest screenshots of the fugliness that is Vista.

And tomorrow we&#39;ll know Apple&#39;s latest sales figure.

Johnny Appleseed
12th October 2005, 09:49 AM
One thing&#39;s for sure: the Intel transition isn&#39;t slowing Mac sales. Apple said (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/oct/11results.html) it shipped 634,000 laptops and 602,000 desktops last quarter, an overall increase of 58 percent in Mac sales.

stevejay
12th October 2005, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Johnny Appleseed@Oct 11 2005, 04:46 PM
Behold (http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=30941&category=main) the latest screenshots of the fugliness that is Vista.
They still don&#39;t get the importance of colour and contrast in interface design over at Macroplop, do they? It&#39;s less garish than XP, but then key interface widgets (like window control buttons) blend into the "woodwork" while unimprtant things like desktop pictures scream luminosity.

It&#39;s sad, really. Real competition from Macroplop would make Apple even better than they already are.

marc
12th October 2005, 10:40 AM
I totally agree stevejay. And yeah, more serious competition would make Apple even better and might force them to clean up some of the smaller UI issues with OS X.


Originally posted by Johnny Appleseed@Oct 11 2005, 11:37 AM
Actually I think you&#39;ll find Apple was barely breaking even on Macs before the iPod boom.
Are you ABSOLUTELY positive about that statement?

If they didn&#39;t make money from selling hardware, then how did they make money and stay in business pre-iPod? It&#39;s certainly not from software sales.

A quick Google:
2001, but pre iPod :: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/apr/18q2results.html
2000 :: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2000/jul/18q3results.html
1999, with talk of 98 and 97 (a bad year&#33;) :: http://www.lowendmac.com/musings/apple99.shtml

new2mac
12th October 2005, 02:46 PM
I&#39;d love to see a &#39;before the second coming of Jobs&#39; graph versus an after.

ipod has been only a tool for the real architect of the Apple revival - Jobs.

Johnny Appleseed
12th October 2005, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by marc@Oct 12 2005, 10:40 AM
If they didn&#39;t make money from selling hardware, then how did they make money and stay in business pre-iPod? It&#39;s certainly not from software sales.

If you read down into those reports you&#39;ll notice one-off sales of share holdings to make the results look rosier. Profits were on the slide between the original iMac boom and the current iPod boom (due mainly to the PC price wars).

And software sales have been contributing more and more to the bottom line lately. Apple&#39;s CFO has said the company wants to become less reliant on hardware sales for its profits.

Johnny Appleseed
29th May 2006, 11:26 AM
PC weenies are starting to get all gooey over Vista, so I thought it was time to give this topic a *bump*

The Fluffy Duck
29th May 2006, 11:34 AM
People are going to go " OOOo Ahhhh" but then after 5 minutes they are going to notice vista blows

Quasar
29th May 2006, 11:38 AM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Johnny Appleseed &#064; Oct 11 2005, 04&#58;46 PM) 104821</div>

Behold (http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=30941&category=main) the latest screenshots of the fugliness that is Vista.
[/b]

As long as I can turn it all off I don&#39;t really care. But then I&#39;ve always been a minimalist kind of guy.

McMullet
29th May 2006, 12:32 PM
There are more pics on Paul Thurrot&#39;s winsupersite (http://www.winsupersite.com). I don&#39;t think it looks all that bad. I mean, it looks more attractive than XP but whether it is actually more usable (locations of buttons and such are all over the place) is another matter.

marc
29th May 2006, 12:58 PM
The Windows UI reminds me of Toyota (or other cheap car makers). ie. massive changes all the time. Go with whatever the latest fad is, in this case it&#39;s clear tail lights (ie. transparent windows).

The OS X UI reminds me of Audi (or any other good euro car maker). ie. Take your time and evolve good concepts. Be smart about any changes and keep the "house" styling on everything to maintain consistency.

mwot
29th May 2006, 01:06 PM
Wonderful analogy, marc. I was remarking to my brother-in-law on the weekend that it&#39;s all the little refinements (both in the hardware and software) that make owning an Apple a real pleasure. Likewise with your Mercs or Audis - it&#39;s the little pockets of ingenuitity woven together into the whole product that make it an experience totally alien to your Toyota (for example) only driver.

bartron
29th May 2006, 02:49 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(The Fluffy Duck &#064; May 29 2006, 11&#58;34 AM) 176854</div>

People are going to go " OOOo Ahhhh" but then after 5 minutes they are going to notice vista blows
[/b]

people will oooh and aaahh and go "this looks better than XP" just like xp looked better than 2000.

Unless someone actually gets to use a mac they will never know that OS X has had all the bling that vista is proclaiming for years now so to them Vista will look revolutionary.

Same old story I guess.

stefanlod
29th May 2006, 04:49 PM
It&#39;ll be like every Windows release, but maybe moreso than others:

People will buy the OS, and for most of them, it&#39;ll be great for a couple of months. Then, the virus writers will get clever. One of them will figure out, for example, how to remotely deactivate the security measures and the spyware floodgates will open. Not to mention that the OS will start slowing to a crawl after a few more months. My prediction? Apple&#39;s sales might slow a bit for a little while, but they won&#39;t run out of steam and will pick up later on.

The Fluffy Duck
29th May 2006, 05:37 PM
"nobody knows what its like" and they never will becasue its engrained inot society that "macs suck" Im doing a computer games course where people bag the shit out of me for using one. They dont even know anything about it. Their last mac experiance was the ones with the green screens in primary school, no joke&#33;

Johnny Appleseed
29th May 2006, 05:58 PM
The number of anecdotal cases I read about of people converting their friends (eg. this thread (http://forums.appletalk.com.au/index.php?showtopic=20438&view=getnewpost)) gives me hope that a quiet grassroots revolution is taking place. It might not amount to a huge market share, but it will place the Mac in a much stronger position.

Johnny Appleseed
14th October 2006, 11:52 AM
Thought it was time to bump this thread again, with Vista up to RC2...

Johnny Appleseed
31st January 2007, 12:50 PM
Another timely bump, now that Vista is out. If you haven't already, vote vote vote!!!

Johnny Appleseed
24th April 2007, 09:30 AM
According to this blog (http://www.it-director.com/blogs/Robin_Bloor/2007/4/vista_sales_disappoint_microsoft_a_.html), Vista has had no impact on the Mac's growth.

A well-off, well-educated couple I know recently switched to Mac without any persuasion from me. Vista didn't interest them, and I'm sure they're not alone, at least among their demographic, which is the most valuable to computer makers.

SyncMan
24th April 2007, 10:12 AM
I am also hearing stories of Vista driving people to consider Mac.

stewiesno1
24th April 2007, 10:26 AM
I know of three separate people ( all clients ) who have purchased PC's in the last year and have found out that their computers are regarded as too old and slow to run Vista. Then I tell them I'm running a late version CAD program with nearly the latest version of OSX on a six year old Mac and they shake their heads. Two of them are very interested in changing to Macs now especially after they asked me a series of questions along the lines of " can I do this... ? and can I connect to this network ...? etc etc . They were impressed and formerly ignorant of how good Macs are these days.We all know this is not an isolated case. I think Vista will actually increase the sales of Macs as people start to hear the problems associated with the change to vista.
Stewie

Macca with a Mac
24th April 2007, 04:48 PM
For Joe Average, Mac's just don't register on the radar. Tech-savvy people know all about Mac's but the great unwashed don't have a clue. Until you can buy a Mac in any Officeworks or Hardly Normal store this situation is going to continue.

I live in Albury/Wodonga (NE Victoria) which has a population of 100,000 people. You mention the word Mac around here and everyone thinks immediately of that cheap hamburger joint. To buy a Mac I had to do a 700km round trip to Melbourne (3 times, but that's another story).

And to answer the question posed by this thread - if my experience is anything to go by Vista is going to be great for Mac sales.

Until a couple of months ago I was a 10 year Windoze user but when faced with buying a new computer and seeing the only choice (locally) as Vista I baulked. I'd had enough of the MS merry-go-round and finally got off. And now that I've switched and seen the light I'm NEVER going back...

Johnny Appleseed
24th April 2007, 05:21 PM
Yeah, Apple has had less of a presence in regional Australia, but now that Macs are in Myer, DJs, Dick Smith etc it should help. There's always the online Apple Store too.

Macca with a Mac
24th April 2007, 05:48 PM
Yeah, Apple has had less of a presence in regional Australia, but now that Macs are in Myer, DJs, Dick Smith etc it should help. There's always the online Apple Store too.

Apple might be in Myers, DJ and Dick Smiths in capital cities but my local regional Myers and Dick Smiths are 100% Microsoft. With 100,000 people in this area I reckon there's enough of a market for an Apple presence but none so far. If I had the $$$ I'd love to open a Mac store here, it's an untapped market.

The online Apple Store is certainly a valid alternative but when you're buying (especially for the first time) you want to see a Mac in the flesh. I was even prepared to do that 10 hour/700km round trip the first time just to set eyes on one...

mwot
24th April 2007, 06:23 PM
... after several weeks of owning a new Windows, wizz-bang laptop pre-installed with Vista, my boss has complained to me about no less than half a dozen times - and even tried taking Office 07 back for a refund. he referenced to the Mac ad re: Vista security and he shook his head and said, 'That is so true.'

i left him a Mac catalogue on his desk. ;)