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MTBlogBot2000
17th July 2010, 04:26 AM
Only a 15 minute presentation, then 15 minutes for Q&amp;A at the end. The one sentence summary of this press conference is: <em>"this issue impacts a tiny, tiny fraction of our customers (0.55%), all smartphones exhibit this same behaviour and despite this, we're going to give you a free iPhone 4 case of your choosing, from any manufacturer, for free."</em>

For us Aussies, we also got a date for the iPhone 4 hitting our shores. July 30th. See:

<img class="aligncenter size-full wp-image-7980" title="iphone-reception-pc-0979-rm-eng" src="http://www.mactalk.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/iphone-reception-pc-0979-rm-eng.jpg" alt="" width="496" height="299" />

As soon as we have info on plans, pre-orders and anything else iPhone 4, I'll let you know first. I'm hanging out for this info as bad as you guys are!

A proper recount of the press conference is below - take note of some of the stuff Steve said during the Q&amp;A. As a long time Apple fan, I totally understand what he's saying about Apple's relationship with the media:
<ul>
<li>They compared other smartphones and found the same issue. All smartphones are susceptible to this problem of antenna placement. Steve reckons the industry needs to group together to improve it.</li>
<li>Actual customer feedback and stats don't come anywhere close to reflecting the media and external hype. Only 0.55% of customers who have contacted AppleCare regarding their iPhone 4 report an issue with the signal. The return rate on the iPhone 4 is lower than the 3GS, with 1.7% of iPhone 4's being returned to AT&amp;T, versus 6% of iPhone 3GS devices.</li>
<li>AT&amp;T's logs show that the iPhone 4 does drop slightly more calls than the iPhone 3GS, however, Steve's unproven hypothesis for this is the fact that no-one is using a case on their iPhone 4, where as with the 3GS, there were cases available on launch as the physical design remained the same as the previous model.</li>
<li>Apple don't think the problem is anywhere near as big as the media has perceived it to be, however, because they care about their customers, they are offering users a choice of any case from the Apple online store, free. Not just the Apple bumpers, but any case for the iPhone 4, shipped free to you, until September 30. This is because they can't make enough bumpers to meet demand, so they need to partner with other case makers. This offer is international, not just US.</li>
<li>Biggest new for us: IPHONE 4 RELEASE DATE FOR AUSTRALIA IS JULY 30TH. MARK IT IN ICAL! JULY 30TH!</li>
<li>During the Q&amp;A after the event, Jobs was scathing on the Bloomberg article saying he knew about the antenna issues and ignored it - <em>"I assume youíre referring to the Bloomberg article? Yeah, it's a crock. What's portrayed in that article never came across my consciousness, and I talked to Reuben and he agrees it's total bullshit."</em></li>
<li>Also from Steve's mouth during the Q&amp;A: <em>But the press that's surrounded this. Maybe people thought we were perfect, and they saw this as an example where we weren't, and thought it would be fun to jump on it. Let me tell you, we are not perfect. We are human. And we make mistakes sometimes. And we don't know everything. But we figure it out pretty fast. And we take care of our customers.</em></li>
<li><em>Maybe it's human nature -- when you're doing well, people want to tear you down. I see it happening with Google, people trying to tear them down. And I don't understand it... what would you prefer? That we were a korean company, that we were here in America leading the world with these products... maybe it's just that people want to get eyeballs on their sites. We've been around for 34 years... haven't we earned the credibility and the trust of the press? I think we have that from our users. I didn't see it exhibited by some of the press as this was blown so far out of proportion. I'm not saying we didn't make a mistake -- we didn't know that it would have these issues, we didn't know we were putting a bull's eye on the phone... but this has been so overblown. But to see how we could do better is going to take some time.</em></li>
</ul>

BowieNIN
17th July 2010, 05:56 AM
Video up on Apple website (US)

mcargy08
17th July 2010, 05:59 AM
im pretty sure Steve did not say free case "from any manufacturer."

Well i guess its the same context as "we will give you choices."

pyrite
17th July 2010, 06:12 AM
In any case, a great solution and some well chosen words from El Jobso. I guess by the end of sept they'll have caught up with bumper production and will include one with every iPhone 4?

blanc
17th July 2010, 06:21 AM
So Steve said all smart phones exhibit the same behavior? I thought the problem was the bridging of the two antennas, even with the fingertip, causes loss of signal. This issue is unique to iPhone 4 because only iPhone 4 has an exposed antenna.

Did they address this at all?

pyrite
17th July 2010, 06:29 AM
Its possible on almost any modern phone to attenuate the signal with your hand in some way, that's really all he's saying. For some the affect is just as dramatic as for iPhone 4. This was way blown out from the start

sendai
17th July 2010, 06:34 AM
Did they address this at all?Congratulations for being the first person in the thread to completely miss the point.

blanc
17th July 2010, 06:47 AM
Congratulations for being the first person in the thread to completely miss the point.
Ok then what point did I miss?

leonardboulevard
17th July 2010, 06:57 AM
whats this stuff with vodafone (NZ) about needing a micro SIM, i just wanna buy a 16GB Black outright and put my current vodafone sim in it, simple.

everunman
17th July 2010, 07:17 AM
whats this stuff with vodafone (NZ) about needing a micro SIM, i just wanna buy a 16GB Black outright and put my current vodafone sim in it, simple.

bad news for you, you cant you have to cut your sim or see your provider for a solution/swap

LithgowLights
17th July 2010, 07:57 AM
whats this stuff with vodafone (NZ) about needing a micro SIM, i just wanna buy a 16GB Black outright and put my current vodafone sim in it, simple.

Because the iPhone 4 uses a microsim perhaps?

As for the TOPIC, cant wait for pre-orders!

Vzzzbx
17th July 2010, 08:00 AM
Notice how the US Apple blogs ran about 10 stories on this press conference yet didn't bother to give the international release date a headline? So incredibly self-absorbed.

nando
17th July 2010, 08:22 AM
It's interest if all phones are the same in terms of antenna coverage than why consumer report signal out iPhone 4 ?? They are an independent body btw.
But in all that's the best apple can do, hoping their next design is better.
Also hoping the carriers honor apples free case policy

Lutze
17th July 2010, 08:33 AM
It's interest if all phones are the same in terms of antenna coverage than why consumer report signal out iPhone 4 ?? They are an independent body btw.
But in all that's the best apple can do, hoping their next design is better.
Also hoping the carriers honor apples free case policy

/sigh

Pageviews = money.

Do try to keep up.

No reseller will honor this offer, it's Apple that are doing it through their website.

Would you like me to translate the full thing into Simpleton for you?

It's nice to get Applecare and the AT&T data on this, it shows how badly the press have blown this out of proportion.

cosmichobo
17th July 2010, 08:35 AM
Especially after seeing the finale of ER last week, I can't help but read the above Steve quotes, and hear Noah Wyle's voice :)

Very interesting, all.

nando
17th July 2010, 08:53 AM
/sigh

Pageviews = money.

Do try to keep up.

No reseller will honor this offer, it's Apple that are doing it through their website.

Would you like me to translate the full thing into Simpleton for you?

It's nice to get Applecare and the AT&T data on this, it shows how badly the press have blown this out of proportion.

Hmmm so the ppl most likely affected will be those on Optus so you are saying they wont get s free bumper unless you get the phone from an apple store???
If thats true ppl will ha issues specially those on Optus.

shiny
17th July 2010, 08:58 AM
Apple has a web page up with details on iPhone and competitors antennas:

Apple - Smartphone Antenna Performance (http://www.apple.com/antenna/)

Interesting HTC antenna is at the top, I thought FCC rules determined it had to be at the bottom?

Looking forward to July 30th!

Blaqjaq
17th July 2010, 08:59 AM
It will likely be done by redemption from apple store and/or website

iJohn
17th July 2010, 09:06 AM
So Preorders will start monday?

Ecto1
17th July 2010, 09:18 AM
Now we wait and see how the main media in oz spins this into it's worse off then apple are saying.

DagrtheSnide
17th July 2010, 09:21 AM
*all smartphones exhibit this same behaviour and despite this, we're going to give you a free iPhone 4 case of your choosing, from any manufacturer, for free."

Therefore, all smart phones require a case to fix this type of behaviour ?

NORMANDY
17th July 2010, 09:21 AM
as per usual its a beat up by "certain web sites" about a whole lot of nothing, I know 1000's of users of iphone 4, and they are not reporting a problem! I never saw any other phone company or tech company doing something about a problem that is affecting such a small number of users, where is the blackberry recall, where is the Microsoft recall of that bug ridden crap heap VISTA?

Apple once again is victim of tall poppy syndrome, and any slight issues is blown out of all proportion, well done those certain web sites, your credibility is as good as those shock tabloid trash newspapers you replaced, all hype, no research or data to back anything up, all just troll bait so you can have eye balls on your site to support your advertisers. We havnt moved very far forward in this digital age of crap media reporting have we?

basseyy
17th July 2010, 09:28 AM
Notice how the US Apple blogs ran about 10 stories on this press conference yet didn't bother to give the international release date a headline? So incredibly self-absorbed.

they're AMERICAN for goodness sake...no one else in the world matters to them,

nibbles
17th July 2010, 09:40 AM
they're AMERICAN for goodness sake...no one else in the world matters to them,

I think you meant to say nobody else at all matters to them, they care about themselves and nobody else. I'm guessing that the september iPod event will have some stuff about the iPhone 4 antenna as they said it would be reviewed in september

ruegen
17th July 2010, 09:48 AM
as per usual its a beat up by "certain web sites" about a whole lot of nothing, I know 1000's of users of iphone 4, and they are not reporting a problem! I never saw any other phone company or tech company doing something about a problem that is affecting such a small number of users, where is the blackberry recall, where is the Microsoft recall of that bug ridden crap heap VISTA?

Apple once again is victim of tall poppy syndrome, and any slight issues is blown out of all proportion, well done those certain web sites, your credibility is as good as those shock tabloid trash newspapers you replaced, all hype, no research or data to back anything up, all just troll bait so you can have eye balls on your site to support your advertisers. We havnt moved very far forward in this digital age of crap media reporting have we?

Dammit I was going to write that :D ;)

blanc
17th July 2010, 09:53 AM
Therefore, all smart phones require a case to fix this type of behaviour ?

I agree. All smart phones do not exhibit this same behavior.

Lutze
17th July 2010, 09:58 AM
Hmmm so the ppl most likely affected will be those on Optus so you are saying they wont get s free bumper unless you get the phone from an apple store???
If thats true ppl will ha issues specially those on Optus.

So that was a "yes" to me putting the whole lot into Simpleton then, as you obviously don't understand English.

Any one that buys an iPhone 4 b4 the end of 30/9/2010 will be able to claim a free case/bumper from Apple.

Does that clear things up for you?

I've tried to keep it under 2 syllables for you but there is only so much I can do.

kevinnugent
17th July 2010, 10:04 AM
I think you meant to say nobody else at all matters to them, they care about themselves and nobody else. I'm guessing that the september iPod event will have some stuff about the iPhone 4 antenna as they said it would be reviewed in september

Honestly, I know it's currently flavorful to kick Americans... But I know a lot of people from the US and you would really find it difficult to find a nicer, more polite and genuinely caring people in the world.

They have all the bad eggs too.... It's just they stand out more.

On topic: pre-orders from the 21st?

Vzzzbx
17th July 2010, 10:08 AM
I agree, but nearly all their tech blogs ignoring the launch date in 16 countries, especially Canada? Seriously?

Exocet
17th July 2010, 10:10 AM
I think you meant to say nobody else at all matters to them, they care about themselves and nobody else. I'm guessing that the september iPod event will have some stuff about the iPhone 4 antenna as they said it would be reviewed in september

Why would Americans care about the release date for countries they're not in? It's not self-absorbtion it is just common sense.

iryan
17th July 2010, 10:17 AM
I agree. All smart phones do not exhibit this same behavior.

That was the point I made earlier in this thread. But lucky for me sendai was on hand to deliver a smack down and explain that I'd missed the point.



If we are really lucky he might even explain the real point to us.

Well, according to Apple's tests, all smartphones do have attenuation issues, theres heaps of comparisons on the site; their video evidence is actually pretty conclusive: Apple - Smartphone Antenna Performance (http://www.apple.com/antenna/)

Vzzzbx
17th July 2010, 10:36 AM
Why would Americans care about the release date for countries they're not in? It's not self-absorbtion it is just common sense.
They know they have an international audience, and a 16-country release date is a pretty significant announcement.

lavo
17th July 2010, 10:47 AM
/sigh

Pageviews = money.

Do try to keep up.

No reseller will honor this offer, it's Apple that are doing it through their website.

Would you like me to translate the full thing into Simpleton for you?

It's nice to get Applecare and the AT&T data on this, it shows how badly the press have blown this out of proportion.

I swear you are the Comic Book Collector from the Simpsons Lutze....

Let's back peddle a little here folks. Apple are still going to spin this to their advantage. I'd love to know the amount of people who do have an iPhone 4 that have blamed dropouts etc on At&T, rather than thinking there is a possible design fault in the phone. There is always the silent majority!

Kudos to Apple for tackling this issue publicly :thumbup: But.....using cases kind of defeats the purpose of having a beautiful looking phone. Interesting that the bumper giveaway finishes at the end of September. I'm guessing Apple already have an iPhone4 rev 1.1 in the skunkworks, which will silently make its way into the stores in October, with a slightly redesigned antenna :)

LithgowLights
17th July 2010, 10:48 AM
They know they have an international audience, and a 16-country release date is a pretty significant announcement.

It certainly is, especially for those of us in the 16 countries :)

Hopefully pre-orders Monday

Exocet
17th July 2010, 10:49 AM
They know they have an international audience, and a 16-country release date is a pretty significant announcement.

So wouldn't it be better for the news outlets in those 16 countries to report on it? Seeing as it's a significant announcement for them (but not the USA).

Geoff3DMN
17th July 2010, 10:49 AM
Well, according to Apple's tests, all smartphones do have attenuation issues

That isn't the point that matters here, SJ is clouding the issue by ignoring the technical causes of the problems he's discussing and implying that the iPhone 4 suffers from the same problem as other smart phones when it's a different issue all together.

The iPhone 4 attenuation issues are caused by bridging the high voltage points at the end of the 2 different antennas detuning the antennas and altering the resonant frequency of the antenna system.

Other smart phones have attenuation issues caused by capacitive coupling to internal antennas which detunes the antennas but doesn't alter the resonant frequency of the internal antenna system (although it most likely alters the impedance coupling).

To the end user both will cause reduced performance but they have very different causes and for him to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

blanc
17th July 2010, 10:50 AM
Well, according to Apple's tests, all smartphones do have attenuation issues, theres heaps of comparisons on the site; their video evidence is actually pretty conclusive: Apple - Smartphone Antenna Performance (http://www.apple.com/antenna/)

Yes noone disputes this. But the iPhone 4 has an *additional* weakness because its antenna is exposed. Other smartphones don't need bumpers because their antennas are protected from direct contact with the hand.

iPhone 4 antenna: unanswered questions, unearned trust (http://arstechnica.com/staff/fatbits/2010/07/unanswered-questions-unearned-trust.ars)

Vzzzbx
17th July 2010, 10:52 AM
So wouldn't it be better for the news outlets in those 16 countries to report on it? Seeing as it's a significant announcement for them (but not the USA).
Blogs like MacRumours and AppleInsider found it necessary to give a separate headline to each tiny aspect of the announcement, there's no reason one of those couldn't have been the second-tier launch date.

iryan
17th July 2010, 10:57 AM
Yes noone disputes this. But the iPhone 4 has an *additional* weakness because its antenna is exposed. Other smartphones don't need bumpers because their antennas are protected from direct contact with the hand.

iPhone 4 antenna: unanswered questions, unearned trust (http://arstechnica.com/staff/fatbits/2010/07/unanswered-questions-unearned-trust.ars)

True, but technically iPhone 4 doesn't need a case either, it's drop in signal is comparative to the other phones.

jesse
17th July 2010, 11:13 AM
Hi,

Can everyone stfu and just focus on the fact that we will have it on July 30th!

I'm excited.

iryan
17th July 2010, 11:19 AM
Hi,

Can everyone stfu and just focus on the fact that we will have it on July 30th!

I'm excited.

Agreed +1

supafly
17th July 2010, 11:26 AM
Now if only we had a pre-order date. Would love to know the outrite price so I can compare the value or outright to plan.

tom5955
17th July 2010, 11:29 AM
Are we expecting pre-orders for this from Apple? I can't remember what happened with the 3GS last year.

Minkey
17th July 2010, 12:03 PM
I guess not surprising, but most media reports on the press conference seem to be focus on Apples apology (I did not hear one) and the free cases. Suggesting it was a back down by Apple.

The facts and data presented at the conference buried at the bottom of most articles.

Sigh.

M

drewbles
17th July 2010, 12:08 PM
they're AMERICAN for goodness sake...no one else in the world matters to them,

Actually, TUAW did have the international release date:

Jobs clears up proximity sensor fix, white iPhone 4, and international plans at press conference (http://www.tuaw.com/2010/07/16/jobs-clears-up-proximity-sensor-fix-white-iphone-4-and-interna/)

So no, they're not self-absorbed septics all the time:)

*edit*
Saw multiple people bitching about lack of Apple news sites covering this. Am I the only one who reads TUAW? I find it one of the better Apple news sites personally.

Amzy
17th July 2010, 12:13 PM
TUAW rocks!!

drewbles
17th July 2010, 12:16 PM
TUAW rocks!!

Oh good i'm not the only one ;)

They do tend to cover *any* Apple news, not just US-centric. It's my first website view of each morning with a coffee:)

TJA77
17th July 2010, 12:45 PM
Hi,

Can everyone stfu and just focus on the fact that we will have it on July 30th!

I'm excited.

Couldnt agree more! No wonder apple gets hammered from the media. There own 'alleged' fans give them a hiding too! Not everything in life will be perfect not even the almighty apple products.

decryption
17th July 2010, 12:52 PM
Apple is only giving out a free case to shut people up and to look like they're doing something - as there's nothing they can do to actually fix this issue because there is no issue according to Apple's data!

It's not an "admission of guilt" as far as I'm concerned. If you watch Steve give the presentation, the way he says it - "people told us they think a case fixes the issue, well, have a free case, there you go" shows that they're only doing it to appear like they're doing something - if the press conference ended with nothing given out to users, they'd look like monsters that have nothing but contempt for their customers.

This is pure and simple, the extreme art of piss poor journalism that is rampant in the tech industry. Page views drive the industry and people like seeing the top dog pulled down and mauled. I've been seeing this in the news for years and it doesn't surprise me that Apple feel the same way (Steve said this numerous times during the the Q&A - that Apple deserve more trust that journalists give them). As a journalist, it's so easy to twist a company's words and their motivations, particularly someone like Apple that is at arms length with the media as opposed to other businesses that are well and truly 1 to 1 with journalists.

I doubt this will change how the IT media reports on Apple. If anything it will piss them off more as Jobs challenged their integrity and there's nothing a journalist hates more than their integrity being questioned.

db9
17th July 2010, 12:54 PM
also, steve doesn't use a case XD

Geoff3DMN
17th July 2010, 01:05 PM
There own 'alleged' fans give them a hiding too!

Apple products are generally superior to the competition but that's no excuse for not pointing out flaws.

For example, a few years back Apple had nothing in their range suitable for casual gaming except the MacPro but now they have the 4850 iMac 27" and the 4670 iMac 21". That happened because informed customers pointed out this hole in their product range.

And people do Apple (and themselves) a disservice when they don't point out product flaws. As the old saying goes... "the squeeky wheel gets oiled".

So yeah... it's a good thing that Apple are being held responsible for a design flaw in the new iPhone (as they were with the 8600GTm problems in the MacBook Pro laptops a while back), it stops them from becoming complacent.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 01:05 PM
Apple is only giving out a free case to shut people up and to look like they're doing something - as there's nothing they can do to actually fix this issue because there is no issue according to Apple's data!

It's not an "admission of guilt" as far as I'm concerned. If you watch Steve give the presentation, the way he says it - "people told us they think a case fixes the issue, well, have a free case, there you go"

Personally I don't want to use a case at all even with the knowledge. Realistically I highly doubt I'll ever have a call dropped because of the x-spot just like I haven't had a problem with my current iPhone. I will have to use a case because of work which has nothing to do with reception and everything to with impact damage. I won't even stinge Apple for a free case by complaining about reception. If anything I expect reception to improve overall.

zillatron
17th July 2010, 01:07 PM
"people told us they think a case fixes the issue, well, have a free case, there you go"

Exactly, they want to make sure 'everyone is taken care of' and 'everyone is happy'. If a free case makes you happy, then you can have one.

So if I walk into an Apple store and buy a iPhone 4 - *worst case* I could end up with a full refund and a free case. Or the best phone on the market and a free case.

Pretty good deal if you ask me.

Dan

Geoff3DMN
17th July 2010, 01:12 PM
as there's nothing they can do to actually fix this issue because there is no issue according to Apple's data!

The data doesn't actually support that there isn't an issue, what it suggests is that the problem is no worse than with other smart phones and that's not the same thing.

You want to know the only thing that would fix it? A antenna re design (and yes I grok antenna theory and design!).

A vertical pull out flexy antenna like some of the old Motorola phones used to have (or a fixed vertical whip antenna like the even older Motorola bricks) would work. A large enough case to provide a large enough physical gap between the antenna and the case would help too.

The thing is people don't want to fix the problem enough to put up with those types of antenna solutions...

A case about 5cm thick would work fairly well too :)

decryption
17th July 2010, 01:16 PM
The data doesn't actually support that there isn't an issue, what it suggests is that the problem is no worse than with other smart phones and that's not the same thing.

You want to know the only thing that would fix it? A antenna re design (and yes I grok antenna theory and design!).

A vertical pull out flexy antenna like some of the old Motorola phones used to have (or a fixed vertical whip antenna like the even older Motorola bricks) would work. A large enough case to provide a large enough physical gap between the antenna and the case would help too.

The thing is people don't want to fix the problem enough to put up with those types of antenna solutions...

A case about 5cm thick would work fairly well too :)

You're right - there's a simple way to fix the issue, make the antenna bigger and outside :p

They also reacted to consumers wants by giving the iPhone more battery life by taking the antenna outside, providing more space for a larger battery. So it's more battery life, or a perceived worse antenna (I don't believe the antenna on the iPhone 4 is overall worse than on the 3GS).

It's not an issue for Apple though, as their data says the iPhone 4's antenna is better than the iPhone 3GS. So when you have this data on one hand, and the absolute rabid dog reaction of the IT media on the other hand, you go "what the fuck?" and have to conduct a press conference to tell everyone "this happens on every phone, we made a mistake by making the weak point so obvious that you know exactly where to touch it"

The issue was totally hyped up by the tech media - that I have no doubt about. The issue is real, but is no more real than it was a year ago.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 01:16 PM
The data doesn't actually support that there isn't an issue, what it suggests is that the problem is no worse than with other smart phones and that's not the same thing.

You want to know the only thing that would fix it? A antenna re design (and yes I grok antenna theory and design!).

A vertical pull out flexy antenna like some of the old Motorola phones used to have (or a fixed vertical whip antenna like the even older Motorola bricks) would work. A large enough case to provide a large enough physical gap between the antenna and the case would help too.

The thing is people don't want to fix the problem enough to put up with those types of antenna solutions...

A case about 5cm thick would work fairly well too :)

I quote myself from a different post :)


This is how I have felt about the antenna since the iPhone 4 was released.

It is the best innovation I have seen yet done by a company that makes mobile phones.

To put a large antenna (remind yourself of the 90s mobiles and those antennas that used to stick out) on your iPhone without it compromising aesthetics, making it a part of the phones structure on the outside rather than cram one all bundled inside (thus allowing for more space for battery, chips and a thinner design) is a step forward that a lot of other phones manufacturers are probably going to copy.

I imagine a lot of phone makers will to do this in the future but they won't put an "x marks the spot" because they'll learn from Apple's media hype incident.

If you think about it, the problem was always there and the antenna is better than before. How Apple is going to get around the x/weak spot problem is the next innovation we are yet to receive from the world or Apple, short of getting a free case.

Bradster
17th July 2010, 01:37 PM
#+=

Balthazar
17th July 2010, 01:46 PM
You know bradster. If debate on this topic annoys you so much... Don't read the thread

ruegen
17th July 2010, 01:47 PM
Let's sort out the idiots from the sensible ones...

Firstly, having an exposed antenna on the outside of a mobile phone is STUPID !!! Ask ANY engineer who knows something about RF.

I donít agree, I think itís fairly innovative and apple is pioneering to make the antenna better and found this is probably the best way.

You can see for yourself their extensive testing, that stuff isnít set up by anyone ďSTUPIDĒ.

Itís one small x-spot on the phone that you have to cover, not the whole antenna or if you touch another part of the antenna itself - and you tend to have to do it in an area with poor reception. And thatís if you even do it or it even happens.

Iím sure when I make a phone call just to be stupid to myself Iím going to change my hand position then hold down on that spot (or cup it) for while until I purposely lose reception after Iíve even found an area with poor reception. :bored:

I think the x-spot is a sacrifice Apple is quite willing to make in order to provide a better antenna and a better iPhone overall.

Sometimes pioneers cop some flak for doing something different.

Bradster
17th July 2010, 01:55 PM
#+=

Bradster
17th July 2010, 01:59 PM
#+=

kevinnugent
17th July 2010, 02:09 PM
Some of the journo's at the conference were taken into the belly of the beast:

Inside Apple's 'black lab' wireless testing facilities -- Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/16/inside-apples-black-lab-wireless-testing-facilities/)

ruegen
17th July 2010, 02:16 PM
@ruegen.

Fact: The original leaked iPhone 4 model that was found in a bar has a case on it.

So? Itís not like they were going to expose it to the world, and that was a prototype model and probably not ďGold MasterĒ but close to it and anyway whoís to say?? :confused:



Fact: Apple's engineers tested the iPhone 4 in-house without cases because they were in secure testing areas - away from the Public eye.


Agreed. Why would I disagree? They probably tested in house with a case, upside down, sitting on a makeshift toilet - who knows?



Fact: Apple didn't know of this problem because of the above two facts... It was never tested out in the open outside a case.


Maybe they did, maybe they didnít test it outside. Iíd really like that fact presented - I may have missed but it really doesnít support much of an argument anyway.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 02:24 PM
To quote engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/16/inside-apples-black-lab-wireless-testing-facilities/)


And we get it -- there have been people out there suggesting that Apple simply didn't test their phone before letting it out into the market. Or that they were so bone-headed that they only tested it in those special cases made for bringing the phone to bars, so of course they didn't see the antenna issue. But let's be honest -- this is a multi-billion dollar company that's been making wireless devices for a long, long time. This isn't their first phone, it's their fourth, and though there have been reception issues with the previous models, nothing suggests that Apple isn't doing its due diligence on these phones. The truth is, we didn't need the tour to understand that, but it's possible some people do.

dotnet
17th July 2010, 03:11 PM
I think this whole debate is way past its use-by date, it's just not interesting anymore. We keep hearing the same rehashed arguments over and over in spite of practical evidence of the contrary.

No matter how much the techbloids chafe themselves masturbating over the issue - Apple will report galloping sales and profits and people will simply use and love their iPhones. Nothing more is going to happen, no more news are going to come out of this.

Cheers
Steffen.

ziggotron
17th July 2010, 03:14 PM
Itís one small x-spot on the phone that you have to cover, not the whole antenna or if you touch another part of the antenna itself - and you tend to have to do it in an area with poor reception. And thatís if you even do it or it even happens.

That's my problem with this whole thing, now they're pretty much saying it's a feature of the device. Why couldn't this x-spot have been placed anywhere else? I think it has been conclusively proven that along with attenuation of the antenna (direct contact) that it's also the bridging of them as well that is causing the signal loss.

This problem is inherently different to the examples Apple have provided. The 'x-spot' is located on a spot where you would very likely cover during regular day to day use (and trigger the problem with a single touch), as apposed to the other devices where Apple had to cover the phones almost entirely in odd and unnatural ways.

Don't get me wrong, I'm genuinely excited for the release of the phone here, and I am looking forward to getting it. This problem doesn't seem to affect people with great reception already, and that's fine, and you guys should enjoy your phones, however, for people with already crappy reception, this issue could really affect general usage and experience of the phone.

lavo
17th July 2010, 03:21 PM
This is pure and simple, the extreme art of piss poor journalism that is rampant in the tech industry. Page views drive the industry and people like seeing the top dog pulled down and mauled. I've been seeing this in the news for years and it doesn't surprise me that Apple feel the same way (Steve said this numerous times during the the Q&A - that Apple deserve more trust that journalists give them). As a journalist, it's so easy to twist a company's words and their motivations, particularly someone like Apple that is at arms length with the media as opposed to other businesses that are well and truly 1 to 1 with journalists.


Would you prefer journalists just sit back and paint Apple in the perfect light, praising every thing they do? I hope not. Swap "page views" with "number of papers sold", and you'll realise that journalism hasn't changed much in over 50 years.....just the medium has changed.

You've worked for a reseller in the past Anthony, so I'm sure you know a story or two about the other side of Apple. For example, I must have charged a full logic board replacement to about 20 people to replace iBook G3 logic boards before Apple finally admitted there was a problem with the graphics chip lifting off the board (due to the bonehead design of placing the hard drive over the top of this chip). I'm sure there are plenty more!

Yes, some people in the media have beaten this up a fair bit. But what if they didn't. What if there genuinely is a design flaw in the phone, but the media let it slide, because its Apple. That would mean millions of people would have been sold a defective product, but no one had the balls to call Apple out on it. Look at the bad press Microsoft have received over the years....this is a drop in the ocean compared to what they have copped ;)

And Apple are at arm's length with journalists?? I'm sure Walt Mossberg and David Pogue would beg to differ!

iryan
17th July 2010, 03:29 PM
That's my problem with this whole thing, now they're pretty much saying it's a feature of the device. Why couldn't this x-spot have been placed anywhere else? I think it has been conclusively proven that along with attenuation of the antenna (direct contact) that it's also the bridging of them as well that is causing the signal loss.

This problem is inherently different to the examples Apple have provided. The 'x-spot' is located on a spot where you would very likely cover during regular day to day use (and trigger the problem with a single touch), as apposed to the other devices where Apple had to cover the phones almost entirely in odd and unnatural ways.

Don't get me wrong, I'm genuinely excited for the release of the phone here, and I am looking forward to getting it. This problem doesn't seem to affect people with great reception already, and that's fine, and you guys should enjoy your phones, however, for people with already crappy reception, this issue could really affect general usage and experience of the phone.

They can't put the x-spot anywhere else, the FCC requires the antenna be at the bottom of the phone.

Exocet
17th July 2010, 03:40 PM
They can't put the x-spot anywhere else, the FCC requires the antenna be at the bottom of the phone.

I guess you missed the video with the Droid Eris showing the antenna at the top of the phone?

decryption
17th July 2010, 03:41 PM
Would you prefer journalists just sit back and paint Apple in the perfect light, praising every thing they do? I hope not. Swap "page views" with "number of papers sold", and you'll realise that journalism hasn't changed much in over 50 years.....just the medium has changed.

Indeed - it's still pathetic :)


You've worked for a reseller in the past Anthony, so I'm sure you know a story or two about the other side of Apple. For example, I must have charged a full logic board replacement to about 20 people to replace iBook G3 logic boards before Apple finally admitted there was a problem with the graphics chip lifting off the board (due to the bonehead design of placing the hard drive over the top of this chip). I'm sure there are plenty more!

Sure - they just did a Time Capsule recall too. Apple aren't perfect, they said this. The sheer volume of products Apple make and the complexity of the products they make are going to lead to faults.

I worked at a reseller in the past, and now (for better or for worse), I work in the media side as well. So I see it from both angles. I know what people in the "non-Apple" media think privately (I've met them and discussed it with them), and I know what it's like to be a fan and an active long time user of their products.

I am not objective and do bias towards Apple, but that's because I trust them more than I trust other companies because they've rarely had reason for me not to. I am also not a journalist and have never claimed to be :)


Yes, some people in the media have beaten this up a fair bit. But what if they didn't. What if there genuinely is a design flaw in the phone, but the media let it slide, because its Apple. That would mean millions of people would have been sold a defective product, but no one had the balls to call Apple out on it. Look at the bad press Microsoft have received over the years....this is a drop in the ocean compared to what they have copped ;)

I'm not talking about the media letting things slide, it's about letting things get out of hand and beating a dead horse to get eyeballs.

Look at all the times there are unwarranted media articles about Apple - people blaming excessive data use on Apple/iPhone. Poor network quality being blamed on Apple when it's the carrier's fault. Chinese manufacturing issues. Exploding laptop batteries. Even the fact there's insane hype around a goddamn store opening shows that there's unusual and unwarranted hype around Apple's products in the mainstream, both positive and negative.


And Apple are at arm's length with journalists?? I'm sure Walt Mossberg and David Pogue would beg to differ!

hah, speak to the majority of journalists (Australian ones at least) and you'll hear that Apple don't comment, don't get involved and prefer to ignore than engage (which is a good thing imho), which is vastly opposite to companies like Microsoft, HTC, Telstra and so on who are incredibly active and communicative with the media on a whole range of issues. For example, if I want to ask Telstra a question, I know the PR person well and can engage with them. If I want to ask Apple a question, they ignore me. Many journalists get to know the PR people so well, that their relationship determines how strong or how hard they bang their drum on an issue. They'll all deny it, but it's true.

ipwn
17th July 2010, 03:49 PM
Yes noone disputes this. But the iPhone 4 has an *additional* weakness because its antenna is exposed. Other smartphones don't need bumpers because their antennas are protected from direct contact with the hand.

The choice we all have!! and that were addressed are.

you have 4 choices

1 = Bumper
2 = dont touch the effected area if you in a weak signal shitty network.
3 = dont buy one
4 = take it back for a full refund if its not for you.

lavo
17th July 2010, 03:58 PM
I am not objective and do bias towards Apple, but that's because I trust them more than I trust other companies because they've rarely had reason for me not to. I am also not a journalist and have never claimed to be

:thumbup: But at least you do call a spade a spade Anthony :)


Look at all the times there are unwarranted media articles about Apple - people blaming excessive data use on Apple/iPhone. Poor network quality being blamed on Apple when it's the carrier's fault. Chinese manufacturing issues. Exploding laptop batteries. Even the fact there's insane hype around a goddamn store opening shows that there's unusual and unwarranted hype around Apple's products in the mainstream, both positive and negative.

I guess Apple is a bit like a Hollywood celebrity. Seeing as they are the leading light of IT at the moment, there are always going to be articles written about them, both good and bad. Just as they feed off all the hype and free publicity, they have to take the bad press on the chin and deal with it. Ask Lindsay Lohan :p


hah, speak to the majority of journalists (Australian ones at least) and you'll hear that Apple don't comment, don't get involved and prefer to ignore than engage (which is a good thing imho), which is vastly opposite to companies like Microsoft, HTC, Telstra and so on who are incredibly active and communicative with the media on a whole range of issues.

Apple don't comment to anyone though. Even their own Store staff have no idea what's going on until Steve says so. You know how frustrating that was when a new product was released, then a few hours later you had phone call after phone from people asking all this questions about a product that you have about the same knowledge as they do!

Anyhoo, my only question about all this iPhone whoohar is why did Apple initially release these bumpers when they announced the new iPhone? I just can't imagine Steve and Jonny Ive wanting their latest and best design being covered up by an ugly bit of plastic.....just a thought :)

ruegen
17th July 2010, 03:59 PM
Would you prefer journalists just sit back and paint Apple in the perfect light, praising every thing they do? I hope not. Swap "page views" with "number of papers sold", and you'll realise that journalism hasn't changed much in over 50 years.....just the medium has changed.

You've worked for a reseller in the past Anthony, so I'm sure you know a story or two about the other side of Apple. For example, I must have charged a full logic board replacement to about 20 people to replace iBook G3 logic boards before Apple finally admitted there was a problem with the graphics chip lifting off the board (due to the bonehead design of placing the hard drive over the top of this chip). I'm sure there are plenty more!

Yes, some people in the media have beaten this up a fair bit. But what if they didn't. What if there genuinely is a design flaw in the phone, but the media let it slide, because its Apple. That would mean millions of people would have been sold a defective product, but no one had the balls to call Apple out on it. Look at the bad press Microsoft have received over the years....this is a drop in the ocean compared to what they have copped ;)

And Apple are at arm's length with journalists?? I'm sure Walt Mossberg and David Pogue would beg to differ!

Microsoft gets bad press because it copies, doesn't fix its software bugs fast enough, builds poor software, builds software that doesn't function as well as Apple's software and knows about it and still charges more for it all. They break laws (EU) and generally care about making
money more than making great software.

They have a completely different company face.

Apple wants to make great products and create a satisfying user experience. It does make unexpected slips from time to time and probably will in the future. That's just life. If a man ever thinks he wonít make a mistake he has just made the greatest mistake of all.

Mossberg & Pogue tend to make more reserved news, compared to a garage blog, because they have a greater responsibility to report news as accurately as they can. They are liable to receive legal repercussions from the public and government if they don't. Sometimes media can provide false or misleading information and it's up to the individual to not be ignorant of that. News is not necessarily fact. It's reporting of what is considered to be fact by the reporter and then ultimately your acceptance.

stab
17th July 2010, 04:22 PM
as per usual its a beat up by "certain web sites" about a whole lot of nothing, I know 1000's of users of iphone 4, and they are not reporting a problem! I never saw any other phone company or tech company doing something about a problem that is affecting such a small number of users, where is the blackberry recall, where is the Microsoft recall of that bug ridden crap heap VISTA?

Apple once again is victim of tall poppy syndrome, and any slight issues is blown out of all proportion, well done those certain web sites, your credibility is as good as those shock tabloid trash newspapers you replaced, all hype, no research or data to back anything up, all just troll bait so you can have eye balls on your site to support your advertisers. We havnt moved very far forward in this digital age of crap media reporting have we?

Hey I saw you write this on Gizmodo too!
I've given up on Giz. It used to be good, but its just gone to the dogs since the iPhone 4 stuff. Sad really...

PeterS
17th July 2010, 04:42 PM
Itís one small x-spot on the phone that you have to cover, not the whole antenna or if you touch another part of the antenna itself - and you tend to have to do it in an area with poor reception. And thatís if you even do it or it even happens.



And that is why I hereby officially rename it as the G SPOT. It is sensitive and must be touched carefully.

lavo
17th July 2010, 04:43 PM
Microsoft gets bad press because it copies, doesn't fix its software bugs fast enough, builds poor software, builds software that doesn't function as well as Apple's software and knows about it and still charges more for it all. They break laws (EU) and generally care about making
money more than making great software.

Is that so.....so Office is a pile of crap? Windows NT/2000 a pile of crap? I find that comment about Apple building better software interesting. I guess you never used 10.1 or 10.2? Apple charged full price to its customers to essentially beta test an OS for a few years. And the firewire bug of 10.3, that was a good one ;) Lots of data on external drives disappeared (you can read about it here (http://www.macintouch.com/panfirewire.html)). Even with their current iPad, there is a bug in Mail that if you download mail that has bounced or some messages over 6 meg, Mail refuses to open. Do yourself a favour, and have a good read through Apple's own Discussion forums ;)


Mossberg & Pogue tend to make more reserved news, compared to a garage blog, because they have a greater responsibility to report news as accurately as they can. They are liable to receive legal repercussions from the public and government if they don't. Sometimes media can provide false or misleading information and it's up to the individual to not be ignorant of that. News is not necessarily fact. It's reporting of what is considered to be fact by the reporter and then ultimately your acceptance.

You haven't noticed during *every* keynote or product release that Apple do, Mossberg's and Pogue's comments are always put up on the big screen? You haven't noticed that the first reviews to come out of any Apple product are from Mossberg and Pogue? I think there is a pattern forming here :p You think there is a good reason those two journalists always seem to get first review of Apple's new shiny gadget???

I think you should do some research of your own in regards to journalism and what's fact and fiction. Google "Pauline Hanson nude pics" and you will see why printing a story that is based on lies does not mean it won't get printed. And a lot of respected journalists did articles on that subject, mind you.

kevinnugent
17th July 2010, 05:00 PM
"Apple's attempt to draw RIM into Apple's self-made debacle is unacceptable. Apple's claims about RIM products appear to be deliberate attempts to distort the public's understanding of an antenna design issue and to deflect attention from Apple's difficult situation. RIM is a global leader in antenna design and has been successfully designing industry-leading wireless data products with efficient and effective radio performance for over 20 years. During that time, RIM has avoided designs like the one Apple used in the iPhone 4 and instead has used innovative designs which reduce the risk for dropped calls, especially in areas of lower coverage. One thing is for certain, RIM's customers don't need to use a case for their BlackBerry smartphone to maintain proper connectivity. Apple clearly made certain design decisions and it should take responsibility for these decisions rather than trying to draw RIM and others into a situation that relates specifically to Apple."

- Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsillie

ziggotron
17th July 2010, 05:02 PM
They can't put the x-spot anywhere else, the FCC requires the antenna be at the bottom of the phone.

Forgive me for my naivety, but isn't the antenna all around the phone? The antenna is on the top, sides and bottom? The 'x-spot' is only the area where the two separate antennas meet, and it's the bridging of those two antennas which cause the major issue.

If someone could test, the same effect could be achieved if someone touched the seam on the top of the phone next to the headphone jack, however since this seam is located in such a situation, it is not likely that a user would touch it in every day use, unlike the seam located on the bottom left hand corner.

This is the key difference between the iPhone 4's problem and other attenuation issues displayed in other phones.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 05:06 PM
Is that so.....so Office is a pile of crap?

Yes. I use iWork and in my opinion it gives me a better user experience. Office sells because it is Office. But that doesnít make me enjoy using it (and I own both).



Windows NT/2000 a pile of crap?
To me itís just another Windows, looks the same and functions the same.

Iím not saying that I hate Microsoft or that everything they do is bad (bing isnít that bad). Iím pointing out why they got what they got.



I find that comment about Apple building better software interesting. I guess you never used 10.1 or 10.2? Apple charged full price to its customers to essentially beta test an OS for a few years. And the firewire bug of 10.3, that was a good one ;) Lots of data on external drives disappeared (you can read about it I did say unexpected slips. I did say Apple tends to patch bugs quickly. I never had this bug happen to me at the time.



here (http://www.macintouch.com/panfirewire.html)). Even with their current iPad, there is a bug in Mail that if you download mail that has bounced or some messages over 6 meg, Mail refuses to open. Do yourself a favour, and have a good read through Apple's own Discussion forums ;)

Really? I hadnít noticed on it my iPad. I guess Apple will have a fix for this. In fact this is how much I didnít know about this bug. You are the first to tell me of it. Was it fixed in the latest update?



You haven't noticed during *every* keynote or product release that Apple do, Mossberg's and Pogue's comments are always put up on the big screen? You haven't noticed that the first reviews to come out of any Apple product are from Mossberg and Pogue? I think there is a pattern forming here :p You think there is a good reason those two journalists always seem to get first review of Apple's new shiny gadget???


A compliment from a source that has public credibility is something to be proud of. Would you rather they just did "joe nobodyĒ blog (such as myself) compliments? They (Mossberg etc) report very popular papers, papers for older people not blog readers. They are going to a different target audience.



I think you should do some research of your own in regards to journalism and what's fact and fiction. Google "Pauline Hanson nude pics" and you will see why printing a story that is based on lies does not mean it won't get printed. And a lot of respected journalists did articles on that subject, mind you.

Um. Your point being? I said that a reporter reports on what they consider (considered) a fact. See that? See what you did there? You missed a word there didnít ya? Donít worry so much about. Itís ok.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 05:10 PM
Forgive me for my naivety, but isn't the antenna all around the phone? The antenna is on the top, sides and bottom? The 'x-spot' is only the area where the two separate antennas meet, and it's the bridging of those two antennas which cause the major issue.

If someone could test, the same effect could be achieved if someone touched the seam on the top of the phone next to the headphone jack, however since this seam is located in such a situation, it is not likely that a user would touch it in every day use, unlike the seam located on the bottom left hand corner.

This is the key difference between the iPhone 4's problem and other attenuation issues displayed in other phones.

Fair question. The x-spot is described as a ďweak spotĒ as in the action happens there. Other phones are supposed to have them too but in different areas and take longer to show because their software makes the bar go down slower...

ruegen
17th July 2010, 05:15 PM
"Apple's attempt to draw RIM into Apple's self-made debacle is unacceptable. Apple's claims about RIM products appear to be deliberate attempts to distort the public's understanding of an antenna design issue and to deflect attention from Apple's difficult situation. RIM is a global leader in antenna design and has been successfully designing industry-leading wireless data products with efficient and effective radio performance for over 20 years. During that time, RIM has avoided designs like the one Apple used in the iPhone 4 and instead has used innovative designs which reduce the risk for dropped calls, especially in areas of lower coverage. One thing is for certain, RIM's customers don't need to use a case for their BlackBerry smartphone to maintain proper connectivity. Apple clearly made certain design decisions and it should take responsibility for these decisions rather than trying to draw RIM and others into a situation that relates specifically to Apple."

- Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsillie

Me thinks they had a few emails form customers alreadyÖ. So is RIM denying it happens when Apple shows it can?? Reducing the risk isnít exactly the same as absolutely no problemÖ

Apple says a majority of phones have this problem. How else are they going to show this without showing a RIM phone?

ziggotron
17th July 2010, 05:16 PM
Fair question. The x-spot is described as a ďweak spotĒ as in the action happens there. Other phones are supposed to have them too but in different areas and take longer to show because their software makes the bar go down slower...

Then is it not a design flaw that this weak spot is in a very bad location? They even know this is a problem of all smartphones, so I don't see what concession I can make to really look over the placement of this x-spot.

VJmes
17th July 2010, 05:17 PM
Hey I saw you write this on Gizmodo too!
I've given up on Giz. It used to be good, but its just gone to the dogs since the iPhone 4 stuff. Sad really...

Hah, I just posted in that thread.

As I mentioned there, it makes for a good story for journalists. When a company with such a reputation for attention to detail and great quality hardware has a fault, it's going to be blown out of proportion. Nokia & RIM have both had these issues before (RIM's reply to Jobs I'm finding particularly humorous in a hypocritical sort of way), though neither of them have ever had this much exposure about it.

The press release itself was indicative that Apple know that there is a problem, and that there's a real PR problem surrounding it. Short of writing off $2 billion in recalls and many millions more in a re-design they've offered consumers a choice.
You can put the bumper on on the phone, take it off the phone and count your blessings it works, or failing that take it in for a refund. Which in itself is a perfectly reasonable option.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 05:24 PM
Then is it not a design flaw that this weak spot is in a very bad location? They even know this is a problem of all smartphones, so I don't see what concession I can make to really look over the placement of this x-spot.

It (if at all) would happen in a poor cellular coverage area, you would have to find the weak spot on the phone (x-spot on iPhone 4) and hold it down for a period of time that reduces the already low reception to less (and if itís really low, you will lose reception then). Apple obviously found the weak spots on other phones and demonstrated them in a poor area.

Leopard
17th July 2010, 05:31 PM
It's sorted now, Boooooooring,
Time to build a Fence and get over it.
2 weeks to go!,,:cool:

TheWatchman
17th July 2010, 05:45 PM
Apple is making a list and checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty and nice. Any site that is reporting this sorta blowout won't be getting keynote invites any time soon!

MightyAtom
17th July 2010, 05:46 PM
Fair question. The x-spot is described as a ďweak spotĒ as in the action happens there. Other phones are supposed to have them too but in different areas and take longer to show because their software makes the bar go down slower...

Bars are a bullshit metric and mean completely different things on different brand phones. They exist to make users feel like they have some form of control.

A fleshy human hand/head is opaque to radio light which attenuates the the signal, this happens with any phone to some degree and is unavoidable. With iPhone 4 placing your hand on the bare metal of both the UMTS/GMS antenna and Bluetooth/Wi-Fi/GPS antenna creates a capacitive bridge detuning them causing further signal loss. This is unique to iPhone 4, the additional signal loss is comparatively much smaller than that caused by your hand/head.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 05:58 PM
I kind of believe the other phone manufactures should be on the side of Apple. Two weeks from now RIM or others might be on the back foot having to defend their own phones because of overblown reports.



It's sorted now, Boooooooring,
Time to build a Fence and get over it.
2 weeks to go!,,:cool:



Anyway, hereís a fence built to get overÖ
http://img.skitch.com/20100717-rmpr3e6n8hu5d976yepg1gkau7.preview.jpg (http://skitch.com/ruegen/dc9gg/untitled)

Vzzzbx
17th July 2010, 06:08 PM
As a journalist, it's so easy to twist a company's words and their motivations, particularly someone like Apple that is at arms length with the media as opposed to other businesses that are well and truly 1 to 1 with journalists.
He brings some of it on himself, then, doesn't he?

ruegen
17th July 2010, 06:12 PM
He brings some of it on himself, then, doesn't he?

There is no excuse for poor journalism.

Vzzzbx
17th July 2010, 06:17 PM
Never, but when you run a secretive business you have to expect things to get out of hand. That's Apple's whole corporate strategy, and when it backfires the first thing Jobso does is have a big public poor-me sook about it.

mike56
17th July 2010, 06:19 PM
I think Steve Jobs did a reasonable job in the circumstances. Apple does tend to push the technical limits in their designs which allows little room to move. I sensed Steve's frustration at mostly the dumb-ass questions.

Apple has taken market share worth tens of millions from other companies and this is the driving force of the negative PR against Apple. Business is war and they fighting and this is the way they have to do it, the other methods, such as building a better product had failed. However, Apple has given them a small window of opportunity and they have pounced on it. Apple did let their guard down at a time when Microsoft, Nokia, Google, RIM are spending millions on their software. Apple cannot afford to do this again.

Geoff3DMN
17th July 2010, 06:19 PM
Itís one small x-spot on the phone that you have to cover, not the whole antenna or if you touch another part of the antenna itself

All the antenna theory I know says that's simply wrong.

Touching a conductive radio antenna WILL detune it to some degree no matter what point you touch it. Whether or not this can been seen on the insensitive display bars of an iPhone doesn't matter it IS happening. I'm sure that a level meter tapped into the relevant RF circuit would easily show the effect (however the physical size of an iPhone will make this difficult).

However I'm also sure that bridging the two antennas will cause a much greater effect.

It may even be the case that the latter effect is so much greater that the first effect seems not to exist... but it does :)

ruegen
17th July 2010, 06:25 PM
Never, but when you run a secretive business you have to expect things to get out of hand. That's Apple's whole corporate strategy, and when it backfires the first thing Jobso does is have a big public poor-me sook about it.

I don't see how it "backfired". Apple will continue to run their company without disclosing unreleased products. Just like any other tech company that wants to run as a business. Again there is no excuse for poor journalism. If journalism sucks it will soon lose reader respect.

Hyssy
17th July 2010, 06:27 PM
Anyone just see the 'report' on channel 7? With judicious use of selective quoting, they turned the press conference into an apologetic, embarrassing confessional. I found it frustrating, having seen the video myself this morning, but it pissed my girlfriend off to the extent that she was shouting at the tv. And she's not even an Apple geek...

Not a mention of Jobs detailing the problem, just quoting his "We're not perfect" and so on...

Vzzzbx
17th July 2010, 06:30 PM
I don't see how it "backfired".
Apple's share price fell and its reputation has come under fire because it didn't respond to an issue that every other company on the planet would have responded to weeks ago (apart from 'you're holding it the wrong way,' which didn't help).


Again there is no excuse for poor journalism. If journalism sucks it will soon lose reader respect.
Yep.

iryan
17th July 2010, 06:32 PM
Forgive me for my naivety, but isn't the antenna all around the phone? The antenna is on the top, sides and bottom? The 'x-spot' is only the area where the two separate antennas meet, and it's the bridging of those two antennas which cause the major issue.

If someone could test, the same effect could be achieved if someone touched the seam on the top of the phone next to the headphone jack, however since this seam is located in such a situation, it is not likely that a user would touch it in every day use, unlike the seam located on the bottom left hand corner.

This is the key difference between the iPhone 4's problem and other attenuation issues displayed in other phones.

Antenna Expert Says FCC Guidelines, Not Apple, Responsible for iPhone 4 Reception Issues | Cult of Mac (http://www.cultofmac.com/antenna-expert-says-fcc-guidelines-not-apple-responsible-for-iphone-4-reception-issues/48386)

An antenna expert explains the issue. The FCC has guidelines on how much radiation can be pumped into the head, so they had to put that certain part of the antenna at the bottom.

Leopard
17th July 2010, 06:36 PM
I kind of believe the other phone manufactures should be on the side of Apple. Two weeks from now RIM or others might be on the back foot having to defend their own phones because of overblown reports.






Anyway, hereís a fence built to get overÖ
http://img.skitch.com/20100717-rmpr3e6n8hu5d976yepg1gkau7.preview.jpg (http://skitch.com/ruegen/dc9gg/untitled)

Nice Fence,and the Flapping continues, Yaaaaaawn:cool:

Rant
17th July 2010, 06:41 PM
I think the important takeaway here is that Apple judges the issue ultimately by the number of returns.

If you buy an iPhone 4 and are unhappy enough with its performance to (say) post on a forum, or complain to your friends, are you prepared to 'put your money where your mouth is' and return it to Apple?

Maybe you can buy another one in a few months when Apple's sorted out the problems.

The only thing corporations, even hippy corporations like Apple listen to, is $$. If they're giving people their money back, they'll do something about the problem, instead of calling a press conference to 'put an end to the issue', and sweep it under the carpet.

And I for one would be much happier to read about people who did something more about their problems than complain online.

lavo
17th July 2010, 06:48 PM
Yes. I use iWork and in my opinion it gives me a better user experience. Office sells because it is Office. But that doesnít make me enjoy using it (and I own both).


To me itís just another Windows, looks the same and functions the same.

Iím not saying that I hate Microsoft or that everything they do is bad (bing isnít that bad). Iím pointing out why they got what they got.


So what you were saying in the previous message...


Microsoft gets bad press because it copies, doesn't fix its software bugs fast enough, builds poor software, builds software that doesn't function as well as Apple's software and knows about it and still charges more for it all. They break laws (EU) and generally care about making
money more than making great software.

...I seemed to have taken out of context? Microsoft only just stopped issuing patches and updates for 2000 this month. 10 years of support. When was the last time Apple issued an update for anything before 10.5?


I did say unexpected slips. I did say Apple tends to patch bugs quickly. I never had this bug happen to me at the time.


10.1 and 10.2 were unexpected slips....hmmmm. I was working for a reseller when those unexpected slips were released. Apple's line at the time to us sales monkeys was to push people into OS X, and away from OS 9. Which is fine if it wasn't a slow pig :p Needless to say some of the visits from angry customers didn't go all that well.....and don't get me started with OS 8 or 9 :D


Really? I hadnít noticed on it my iPad. I guess Apple will have a fix for this. In fact this is how much I didnít know about this bug. You are the first to tell me of it. Was it fixed in the latest update?


No it wasn't. Seriously. Take some time to read through the various forums on Apple's on Discussion site (http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa). You will be surprised how many bugs and issues do come up :thumbup:

Vzzzbx
17th July 2010, 07:01 PM
Have you guys considered the positives of all this? When you take a call from someone you can't stand, you can just hang up on them and say 'sorry, not me, iPhone 4.' Then just keep doing it and blaming the phone until they bugger off.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 07:04 PM
So what you were saying in the previous message...



...I seemed to have taken out of context? Microsoft only just stopped issuing patches and updates for 2000 this month. 10 years of support. When was the last time Apple issued an update for anything before 10.5?



10.1 and 10.2 were unexpected slips....hmmmm. I was working for a reseller when those unexpected slips were released. Apple's line at the time to us sales monkeys was to push people into OS X, and away from OS 9. Which is fine if it wasn't a slow pig :p Needless to say some of the visits from angry customers didn't go all that well.....and don't get me started with OS 8 or 9 :D



No it wasn't. Seriously. Take some time to read through the various forums on Apple's on Discussion site (http://discussions.apple.com/index.jspa). You will be surprised how many bugs and issues do come up :thumbup:

Apple has a support site like the others where you will see complaints. A lot of those complaints can be either because itís the users fault (and it can be) or it is a genuine bug. The support site is a place to report bugs in order to seek them to be resolved and not a place to source media as they may or may not be solved. Itís not a ďfun place to hang out with friends and talk about blogs or issuesĒ itís a serious service for customers.

Microsoft patches that take too long to arrive and bugs that are frequent arenít much good either and that is why they get the bad rap in the media, donít blame me Iím just explaining in my opinion why it happens :mellow:. Besides itís a PC vs MAC debate and I donít want to debate it.

Apple has always been upfront about not updating legacy software and no longer offering support for it after a period of time. Thatís their choice, although sometimes they do give the occasional update to old software. Maybe that is another reason why Microsoftís software isnít that great - it is sticking with the old.

lavo
17th July 2010, 07:08 PM
Me thinks they had a few emails form customers alreadyÖ. So is RIM denying it happens when Apple shows it can?? Reducing the risk isnít exactly the same as absolutely no problemÖ

Apple says a majority of phones have this problem. How else are they going to show this without showing a RIM phone?

RIM are distancing themselves from Apple, like the others no doubt will in the coming days too.

lavo
17th July 2010, 07:13 PM
Apple has a support site like the others where you will see complaints. A lot of those complaints can be either because itís the users fault (and it can be) or it is a genuine bug. The support site is a place to report bugs in order to seek them to be resolved and not a place to source media as they may or may not be solved. Itís not a ďfun place to hang out with friends and talk about blogs or issuesĒ itís a serious service for customers.


WTF?????????? I suggested visiting that site so you can see the amount bugs and issues with the various Apple products, that you don't seem to know about :slant: It has nothing to do with hanging out etc.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 07:19 PM
Apple's share price fell and its reputation has come under fire because it didn't respond to an issue that every other company on the planet would have responded to weeks ago (apart from 'you're holding it the wrong way,' which didn't help).

That doesnít have anything to do with not disclosing unreleased technology.

It was 22 days ago they learned, during which they made the effort tp confirm the fault, get all the information so no one is uniformed and they are aware of what the fault is in its entirety and not worse than it is or isnít and made it public

And the original quote (if even true)


Nope. Just don't hold it that way.

Every joker on the web with a 2 bit sense of humour has modified the original quote. Not that I mind, I have a sense of humour and see the funny side to every joke posted in this thread. But sometimes humour gets old. Fast.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 07:35 PM
WTF?????????? I suggested visiting that site so you can see the amount bugs and issues with the various Apple products, that you don't seem to know about :slant: It has nothing to do with hanging out etc.

ok read:

A support site forum is not a media source. Itís a place to raise unserviced faults and hopefully have them fixed. Customers get service there and the fault may yet be identified for the individual customer with the fault. You donít know if a fault there is actually a fault because Apple hasnít confirmed it nor have you. I can write an imaginary fault there as an example and you would believe it then.

You raise a fault. Apple tends to it. They arenít there to argue, debate or put forward a point to the media. They canít be used as a source because the source fault isnít confirmed, finished or fixed and the fault may not be confirmed by Apple at the time of using the information (until it is confirmed) and even a fault of the user.

Itís the place Apple gets its faults information so that they can fix them. But they have to confirm them first. Yes you are going to see faults there but that is the whole idea.

I donít know about those individual faults because I donít get them. I donít have to go and read every fault to argue why Microsoft gets bad press. They just do, you said it yourself and I gave a reason as to why. I didnít say Apple doesnít get faults, just not in the same way Microsoft does. If it were the same then there wouldnít be Windows or OS X.

Apple documents its confirmed faults and makes them public. Look to those instead.

Geoff3DMN
17th July 2010, 07:43 PM
An antenna expert explains the issue. The FCC has guidelines on how much radiation can be pumped into the head, so they had to put that certain part of the antenna at the bottom.

I quote the 'antenna expert'... "This insures that the radiating portion of the antenna is furthest from the head."

That's wrong also! (where do they get these experts?).

An antenna of whatever design will radiate along the entire length of the antenna with the voltage and current along the antenna varying inversely and the radiation strength at any particular point being a result of the current flow at that particular point.

The FCC guidelines do exist (and for a reason) and putting the portion of the antenna that radiates the strongest (the high current/low voltage portion) at the base minimizes exposure to the head (think inverse square radiation law).

So it is correct to place that portion at the base but it isn't correct to say 'radiating portion' since all of the antenna radiates to varying degrees.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 07:43 PM
RIM are distancing themselves from Apple, like the others no doubt will in the coming days too.

I donít think that is the affect they (RIM) are hoping to get. :eek:

zillatron
17th July 2010, 07:45 PM
With judicious use of selective quoting, they turned the press conference into an apologetic, embarrassing confessional.

Not a mention of Jobs detailing the problem, just quoting his "We're not perfect" and so on...

Yep, I'm shocked they can get away with such blatant lies. That's exactly the kind of disgraceful misinformation that started this nonsense.

Dan

ziggotron
17th July 2010, 08:44 PM
Antenna Expert Says FCC Guidelines, Not Apple, Responsible for iPhone 4 Reception Issues | Cult of Mac (http://www.cultofmac.com/antenna-expert-says-fcc-guidelines-not-apple-responsible-for-iphone-4-reception-issues/48386)

An antenna expert explains the issue. The FCC has guidelines on how much radiation can be pumped into the head, so they had to put that certain part of the antenna at the bottom.

That certain part exists on the top of the phone and on the bottom of the phone.. that part is just the seam between the two different antennas located on the perimeter of the iPhone, which is on the top, sides and bottom of the phone.

I don't understand why people are saying the antenna is on the bottom of the device when it is clearly all around the device.

If I am incorrect, please explain further?

EDIT: Just read the part that said radiating portion of the antenna, does the seam still not count for anything though?

lavo
17th July 2010, 08:44 PM
ok read:

A support site forum is not a media source. Itís a place to raise unserviced faults and hopefully have them fixed. Customers get service there and the fault may yet be identified for the individual customer with the fault. You donít know if a fault there is actually a fault because Apple hasnít confirmed it nor have you. I can write an imaginary fault there as an example and you would believe it then.

You raise a fault. Apple tends to it. They arenít there to argue, debate or put forward a point to the media. They canít be used as a source because the source fault isnít confirmed, finished or fixed and the fault may not be confirmed by Apple at the time of using the information (until it is confirmed) and even a fault of the user.

Itís the place Apple gets its faults information so that they can fix them. But they have to confirm them first. Yes you are going to see faults there but that is the whole idea.

I donít know about those individual faults because I donít get them. I donít have to go and read every fault to argue why Microsoft gets bad press. They just do, you said it yourself and I gave a reason as to why. I didnít say Apple doesnít get faults, just not in the same way Microsoft does. If it were the same then there wouldnít be Windows or OS X.

Apple documents its confirmed faults and makes them public. Look to those instead.

I give up.

W9cae
17th July 2010, 09:50 PM
I give up.

All the mumbo jumbo equates to Apple + iPhone + Steve Job's = EPIC FAIL

And thats a real shame as the original iPhone was such a great innovative product. Now this gives other makers a chance at taking market share. But Apple has no options as a recall would cost way too much & be so environmentally wasteful. But on a good point that might just keep Apple out of the area Microsoft got into with windows monopoly law suites. I haven't been in a rush for the new iPhone & might just pass on this model.

ruegen
17th July 2010, 09:53 PM
___

Iíve enjoyed the discussion but hereís where I will say adieu to this thread.

W9cae
17th July 2010, 10:11 PM
All the news reports after Apples press conference are not favorable & some are even highlighting what sheep some Apple fan boys are. This is not the end of the bad PR, just like Apple used to poke at Microsoft adds. Other mobile phone companies will do the same towards Apple. This iPhone model if it had been a good device would have cemented them in the mobile hand set business. Now established makers will regain there market share. This was such an epic failure on Apples part. Heads should roll.......................

ZacDavies
17th July 2010, 10:23 PM
http://www.geekculture.com/joyoftech/joyimages/1417.gif

SilverJ
17th July 2010, 10:36 PM
Haha excellent comic. It's funny because it's true.

I have read so much about this ordeal even though I knew all along that I was going to buy the iPhone 4 anyway. It has highlighted that choosing the right network carrier is now more important than ever. This time I may bite the bullet and go with Telstra. I've been with Optus the two years and it is time for an change. The iPhone is only as useful as the network it is on!

I'm happy to receive a case for free, but I've had every iPhone so far and never used a case. I have used a Moshi iPouch and it has been brilliant. I will do the same with the iPhone 4. Apple products look their best when they're naked!

NORMANDY
17th July 2010, 11:37 PM
Hey I saw you write this on Gizmodo too!
I've given up on Giz. It used to be good, but its just gone to the dogs since the iPhone 4 stuff. Sad really...

yea and they deleted every post I put up about them, so they are better than apple how?

they are total hypocrites.. nothing but a bunch of pubescent teenagers who rant on like a bunch of jerks, they don't let any facts get in the road of a eye ball on their site so their ads get a viewing.

I am giving that site a big wide birth, and its off my bookmarks! I havn't got time to read kids rants!

Edd
18th July 2010, 12:03 AM
And thats a real shame as the original iPhone was such a great innovative product. Now this gives other makers a chance at taking market share. But Apple has no options as a recall would cost way too much & be so environmentally wasteful. But on a good point that might just keep Apple out of the area Microsoft got into with windows monopoly law suites. I haven't been in a rush for the new iPhone & might just pass on this model.

You mean the other makers with the exact same issue? (That issue being those pesky laws of physics and RF theory.)

StoneWolf
18th July 2010, 12:49 AM
Well if nothing else the video of the media conference has convinced me to line up come Friday week.

Loved the iPhone 4 Antenna song too. This paired with the iPad + Valcro video Apple hosted on there site a little while back has me thinking they are exploring new ways to involve users and enthusiasts.

Jay
18th July 2010, 06:09 AM
Well if nothing else the video of the media conference has convinced me to line up come Friday week.

Loved the iPhone 4 Antenna song too. This paired with the iPad + Valcro video Apple hosted on there site a little while back has me thinking they are exploring new ways to involve users and enthusiasts.

It is quite possible Apple may release a hardware redesign in September. But I will certainly buy this one. I ve found the same signal attenuation in the 3GS az well as previous nokias although never realized this was the actual prob. So I believe the apple videos about the other phones suffering the same problem. The anandtech description was the perfect one. Free bumper or not I am committed to the iPhone 4 cause. If the scare mongers manage to keep the crowd away on the launch day it will be a blessing in disguise....

Geoff3DMN
18th July 2010, 07:27 AM
I don't understand why people are saying the antenna is on the bottom of the device when it is clearly all around the device.

The antenna IS all around the device but the portion that radiates more of the signal is situated at the bottom of the device.


EDIT: Just read the part that said radiating portion of the antenna, does the seam still not count for anything though?

The exposed seam is important because it's the point at which placing ones hands most detunes the antennas.

You can think of radio antennas as being like guitar strings, a short one wants to vibrate at a higher frequency and a longer one at a lower frequency.

The iPhone 4 has 2 antennas, one shorter and one longer and they both start at the same point wrapping around the outside of the phone. They both end where the gap is but don't touch each other.

When you touch the gap you create a type of bridge between the two antennas altering the 'resonant' frequency of the antennas.

Think of tying 2 pieces of guitar string together... it now wants to vibrate at a different (longer/slower) frequency (note).

The difference between guitar strings and radio antennas is that most radio antennas are like only a bit of the guitar string (say a quarter or a half) but that it'd still make sound :)

Now the bit of the guitar string that makes the most sound is the bit that vibrates the most (the middle, that's the high current point on an antenna) but all of it makes some sound right until the absolute ends which don't move at all (the high voltage/zero current point on an antenna).

Now there are some other differences (like you can bend a radio antenna and it'll keep vibrating) but it's still a useful analogy IMO.

VJmes
18th July 2010, 12:40 PM
Anyone just see the 'report' on channel 7? With judicious use of selective quoting, they turned the press conference into an apologetic, embarrassing confessional. I found it frustrating, having seen the video myself this morning, but it pissed my girlfriend off to the extent that she was shouting at the tv. And she's not even an Apple geek...

Not a mention of Jobs detailing the problem, just quoting his "We're not perfect" and so on...

Though that is channel 7, the same television network that has been programming great examples of journalism for years, like Today Tonight. ;)

iRuler
18th July 2010, 02:15 PM
Though that is channel 7, the same television network that has been programming great examples of journalism for years, like Today Tonight. ;)

I saw that, SBS did the same thing at the 6:30 news, kinda sad really.

lavo
18th July 2010, 03:19 PM
*snip*
Now there are some other differences (like you can bend a radio antenna and it'll keep vibrating) but it's still a useful analogy IMO.

:thumbup: Excellent explanation :)

rockinrobstar
18th July 2010, 03:36 PM
Anyone know where I can download the 'Apple Event' - my net is too slow to stream the presentation and it doesn't appear on Apples 'Keynotes' podcast ?

ZacDavies
18th July 2010, 07:53 PM
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l5m3e0H4Wa1qze5g2o1_500.gif

asdf
18th July 2010, 09:13 PM
And that is why I hereby officially rename it as the G SPOT. It is sensitive and must be touched carefully.

Well, if it's anying like the g-spot, I'll never be able to find it.. :)

daedalus
18th July 2010, 10:39 PM
If the scare mongers manage to keep the crowd away on the launch day it will be a blessing in disguise....

Amen to that!!

james the 2nd
18th July 2010, 10:43 PM
It is quite possible Apple may release a hardware redesign in September..

It's quite possible that this maybe the case..(parden the pun :) )

Having seen the video, another thing to consider is (and to me the data presented really showing that it's almost a non issue, eg, ust one more call in 100 dropped than the 3GS for instance) - I wouldn't be surprised to see SJobs get on the stage and say something like..

"Well, we now have 3 months of data that tells us that the iphone 4 antenna is hands down better than the 3GS and (list competitors phone here).." Yep, no issue folks.

From now until september 30 almost all phones will be covered with a case hence the data will be off the charts when compared to what was presented yesterday.

Also, there's no question that including "Apple" in a header for a story gets more eyeballs..

For instance I've noticed that on news.com.au or theage.com.au, Foxconn is rarely (if ever?) presented as the company that makes HP products, but as Apple's manufacturer (of which is just one of many of foxconns clients.)

Hmm..