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View Full Version : Apple's attitude is a turn off



Dutch H
11th June 2010, 12:37 PM
Heya,

I am a loyalist Mac man having owned over 10 Macintoshs since the early 1980s ranging from Powerbooks to Mac Pros.

I am in the market for a new Mac Pro since my last Mac passed away in February 2010 (RIP). I have patiently been waiting since then as an update for the 2009 Mac Pro is expected. Yet we all still wait and we have no response.

According to the Mac Buyers Guide on our Colleagues site, MacRumors the average update for the PowerMac/Mac Pro is 236 days. It has now hit 465 days without an update. I respect that since the introduction of Intel chips in the Mac Pro, updates have not been as frequent. Yet 465 days is offensive.

The problem I have with Apple is not that they have not updated the 2009 Mac Pro. These things happen. Most information suggests that it is due to Intel's short supply of new generation chips. The problem is that Apple is still charging the exact same amount for the Mac Pro as it did when it was released back in March 2009. The other problem is Apple in it's 'wise' wisdom does not make any suggestion when the updated Mac Pro will be released. The Mac Pro is not a general consumer machine. It is used by Professionals that rely on modern and current technology. WWDC has passed without a mention of it.

The PowerMac G5 is almost officially obsolete so I can imagine many organisations and professional uses wanting to upgrade. They, including myself can not be prepared to wait any longer.

This is the issue with Apple. We all love them and have stuck with them through the thick and thin. It seems though that in the last few years as Apple Computer turned into Apple Inc, it has became a iToy company and has forgotten their core and loyal user base. It is offensive and upsetting that they just expect this part of their market to just 'cop it on the chin' as they are so loyal they will wait and but it anyway. It is arrogant. If it wasn't for these people, Apple would of been down the drain a long time ago. I own an iPhone and am thinking of getting an iPad. These products are great but they are not able to fully replace a desktop or laptop computer.

Apple is a master of marketing. Just look at all the free advertising for the iPhone and iPad. Sony, Microsoft and a hundred other companies would love to have a product that sells itself.

In summary I hope to god Apple doesn't sell out it's loyal Macintosh user base and become the iToy company it seems to be developing into. I hope they update the Mac Pro shortly and if not offer an explanation or reduce the price of the current 2009 Mac Pro up for sale.

That is my 2 cents. Agree with me or not. I don't mind. Discussion and debate is healthy.

God Bless.

Dutch H

delux
11th June 2010, 12:44 PM
If you are currently using a Thinkpad R40e Celeron for work then surely a 2009 Mac Pro would be suitable. Why not just buy a 2009 refurb and save some coin. If you need it for work then buy it.

euphospug
11th June 2010, 01:10 PM
Steve Jobs calls death of Mac reports 'Completely Wrong' | 9 to 5 Mac (http://9to5mac.com/death_of_the_mac_untrue)


could be interesting - but a bit of a tease and annoying it's taken so long.

Arkhum_Eramak
11th June 2010, 01:16 PM
I hear where you're coming from, but this is exactly the attitude of a majority of users on Mac Rumors and to be honest, it's driving me insane.

There seems to be a perception of Apple abandoning the 'core' Macintosh platform, and in particular, the pro machines. Now, consider this. A few years back, a new G5 model was keynote-worthy. Custom CPUs for Apple, a performance point to prove, no idea when they'd appear. This worked. Now we have Intel's detailed roadmap and very clear technological additions. Imagine announcing the new 6-core Mac Pro to the crowd before introducing iPhone 4. Dual 6-core Xeons, 1333MHz RAM, a new GPU option. That's all, move along. For a minority, it's a case of 'yay, Mac Pro FINALLY!' but for many it would be a grim announcement, no new features, nothing everyone wasn't anticipating. Let down, basically.

You cite MacRumors 'averages', but one thing they fail to point out is the long wait between Mac Pro 1,1 and Mac Pro 3,1. After all, Mac Pro 2,1 was just a quad-core configuration option, whilst the actual Mac Pro hardware remained identical. So that's August '06 until January '08 with no real update (and plenty of gnashing of teeth and 'Apple have forgotten the pros, so long Mac Pro!')

The fact of the matter is, when was the last time a Mac was given good stage time? I believe it was the Unibody design introduction. Now when you look at the Macs from the last few years, what has been the biggest Apple innovation in the Macs? The unibody design. What is there to talk about?

The new Mac Pro will be ready when it's ready. And it'll be fast. You'll probably see a 10% increase in overall performance vs the current Mac Pro. There'll be speed bumps at the bottom end, and dual 6-core configuration at the top. From what I've seen of the 6-core CPU prices, they'll be outrageously expensive.

I am a working professional, and I make a living from my Mac Pro. I have been using a Mac Pro 1,1 since 2007, and upgraded to a Mac Pro 4,1 this year (thanks to a great deal I got here on MacTalk). If I need a new machine, then I'll get one. I didn't *need* a new Mac Pro yet. Sure, I wished I could render a bit faster, but outside of that I could have got a further two years+ out of my current model. In fact, I had only made the decision to purchase a new Mac Pro next financial year two weeks before I bought one from a MacTalk member. Weighing up the pros and cons, I believe I got the best performance bang for my buck vs waiting out the new Mac Pro 5,1 and spending $8000~ on it.

There's too much doomsaying on forums. I don't believe that the Mac Pro is going anywhere, or that Final Cut Pro is going anywhere (or being dumbed down). Once upon a time if a new G5 model wasn't out yet it was stiff bikkies, sit down and bloody wait. Now everyone can see Intel's CPU roadmaps and availability and what else is available and they all have a good whinge because the MacBook Pro opted for battery life and weight/size over raw power, and as a pro who has had to use laptops on the road, these are attractive features to me.

If you need the Mac Pro to make a living but don't want to pay for a new one, find a good one second hand or in the Apple Refurb store. If you're just an enthusiast who wants an excessive tower for general computing tasks and you absolutely HAVE to have the latest and greatest, wait it out. The Mac Pro 5,1 will not magically allow you to do anything you couldn't do with the Mac Pro 4,1, you'll just do it slightly quicker. Depending on your configuration, it may be negligibly quicker.

Brains
11th June 2010, 01:27 PM
"It's hard to improve upon perfection." -- Steve Jobs

Sebastianmonty
11th June 2010, 01:36 PM
If you are currently using a Thinkpad R40e Celeron for work then surely a 2009 Mac Pro would be suitable. Why not just buy a 2009 refurb and save some coin. If you need it for work then buy it.

aRfurbs are a great. I have the refurb on the RSS feed. I check it every day and the only one I have ever seen is the 2.95Ghz 1 core Xeon for $5699. It costs less, honeslty, to BTO that option in the Australian online store.
I know one 1 day, just 1, they had 2.66 and 2.26 Mac Pros. They lasted a few hours and sadly I was working. I would have bought 3 and sold 2 on ebay if I had have been off work.

So I agree with the thread starter. You put your information in a way which is obsewrvant and not critical.
In this area, they are definitely wrong- in the eye of the consumer. Guess what, they are in the consumer pleasing business.
All it takes is for some fantastic technical person who can write very well to get all the information on this and list all the sources and said it out to all companies which use mac pros with a suggestion for a windows computer that is 2x the specs, has software which works well too with cameras etc. and organize the things like leasing, technical support, etc. and he could wipe out the marketshare of Apple by 30% in australia.
Obviously he would need to be good. But if he posted this information to all companies which would use a mac pro with a better alternative, with better pricing, better support and todays specs it could happen.

I will strike a nerve here but I believe it's true. It's true because Apple is not keeping anyone in the know on when to expect this. Same with a 27inch screen. I wouldn't buy the 30inch screen from Apple. Dells is newer by 3 years and is better.

Now you imagine if what I just said, happened in Hollywood. All as a method to get Apple to communicate to it's consumers.
See the reason Apple is so secretive is because: stock price. Rumors affect it a little, a press release more so. It may dip the day of the release as day traders have seen a small sustained increase and sold. Then for a few days many sell. It crashes a little and they buy it back and it soars. For example the ipad has afefcted the stock price hugely since it was revealed. The Mac Pro won't have the same affect, but with a good crew and a few million USDs you could affect the Mac Pro sales.

Anyway I am rambling. My point is this: release a new Mac Pro or drop the price.
Soruce Mac Buyer's Guide: Know When to Buy Your Mac, iPod or iPhone (http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro)

465 days since an upgrade. Hmmm cutting edge technology is it.
Top Geekbench 2 Results : Geekbench Result Browser (http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/top?page=1)

Mac pros used to be in top ten of benchmarks. You have to go to the 24th spot to see the first Mac Pro.

I was so sure they would release the new Mac Pro I sold my Mac Pro on a 3 days auction on ebay and got $250 less than I thought it I would get(I got $910 for Mac Pro 1,1 in great condition). It was my fault of course, but some bloody indication from Apple would be nice

Dutch H
11th June 2010, 02:33 PM
I hear where you're coming from, but this is exactly the attitude of a majority of users on Mac Rumors and to be honest, it's driving me insane.

There seems to be a perception of Apple abandoning the 'core' Macintosh platform, and in particular, the pro machines. Now, consider this. A few years back, a new G5 model was keynote-worthy. Custom CPUs for Apple, a performance point to prove, no idea when they'd appear. This worked. Now we have Intel's detailed roadmap and very clear technological additions. Imagine announcing the new 6-core Mac Pro to the crowd before introducing iPhone 4. Dual 6-core Xeons, 1333MHz RAM, a new GPU option. That's all, move along. For a minority, it's a case of 'yay, Mac Pro FINALLY!' but for many it would be a grim announcement, no new features, nothing everyone wasn't anticipating. Let down, basically.

You cite MacRumors 'averages', but one thing they fail to point out is the long wait between Mac Pro 1,1 and Mac Pro 3,1. After all, Mac Pro 2,1 was just a quad-core configuration option, whilst the actual Mac Pro hardware remained identical. So that's August '06 until January '08 with no real update (and plenty of gnashing of teeth and 'Apple have forgotten the pros, so long Mac Pro!')

The fact of the matter is, when was the last time a Mac was given good stage time? I believe it was the Unibody design introduction. Now when you look at the Macs from the last few years, what has been the biggest Apple innovation in the Macs? The unibody design. What is there to talk about?

The new Mac Pro will be ready when it's ready. And it'll be fast. You'll probably see a 10% increase in overall performance vs the current Mac Pro. There'll be speed bumps at the bottom end, and dual 6-core configuration at the top. From what I've seen of the 6-core CPU prices, they'll be outrageously expensive.

I am a working professional, and I make a living from my Mac Pro. I have been using a Mac Pro 1,1 since 2007, and upgraded to a Mac Pro 4,1 this year (thanks to a great deal I got here on MacTalk). If I need a new machine, then I'll get one. I didn't *need* a new Mac Pro yet. Sure, I wished I could render a bit faster, but outside of that I could have got a further two years+ out of my current model. In fact, I had only made the decision to purchase a new Mac Pro next financial year two weeks before I bought one from a MacTalk member. Weighing up the pros and cons, I believe I got the best performance bang for my buck vs waiting out the new Mac Pro 5,1 and spending $8000~ on it.

There's too much doomsaying on forums. I don't believe that the Mac Pro is going anywhere, or that Final Cut Pro is going anywhere (or being dumbed down). Once upon a time if a new G5 model wasn't out yet it was stiff bikkies, sit down and bloody wait. Now everyone can see Intel's CPU roadmaps and availability and what else is available and they all have a good whinge because the MacBook Pro opted for battery life and weight/size over raw power, and as a pro who has had to use laptops on the road, these are attractive features to me.

If you need the Mac Pro to make a living but don't want to pay for a new one, find a good one second hand or in the Apple Refurb store. If you're just an enthusiast who wants an excessive tower for general computing tasks and you absolutely HAVE to have the latest and greatest, wait it out. The Mac Pro 5,1 will not magically allow you to do anything you couldn't do with the Mac Pro 4,1, you'll just do it slightly quicker. Depending on your configuration, it may be negligibly quicker. I agree with you there is so much doomsday talk on various forums. Regardless if Apple abandons the Mac platform it has been a long time between updates. That is the simple fact. No problems with selling Tech that is almost 15 months old, but don't keep asking the same price. Otherwise keep it the same price but bump up the Hard Drive, RAM, Video Card Etc.

Regarding the Celeron, it is my home computer. I have currently borrowed an iMac from a friend for work. But naturally he needs it back soon.

dsiew
11th June 2010, 04:32 PM
If you can afford a Mac Pro and need one for work, why don't you go BUY one rather than lament about it? The fact that you can afford one but instead choose to borrow a friend's iMac to do "work" is rather bluntly, ridiculous. Why not rent one for a while? Or buy an iMac and sell it later? Seems like this has got nothing to do with a new, updated Mac Pro because if you really needed one for work, you wouldn't be writing this 4 months after your previous workhorse died. No point wasting time speculating about why there's no MP, as mentioned before, it'll come when it comes.

nibbles
11th June 2010, 04:33 PM
Apple need a separate WWDC keynote or something for these products, these days it is iPhone that and iPad that and all we get occasionally is a spec bump. I know that you can't improve on perfection but the thing is you can improve on it, new cinema displays, price drop on the mac pro or even a design/ internals overhaul. It also seems that more and more we are seeing apple products with bugs or issues (my safari 5 is pretty buggy) because they have been to focused on the iOS devices, put some tender loving care back on to the mac platform.

canonafficionado
11th June 2010, 04:50 PM
... You'll probably see a 10% increase in overall performance vs the current Mac Pro. ...

Should this be higher if Moore's law translates into actual performance?

Arkhum_Eramak
11th June 2010, 05:22 PM
Logically yes I would assume that Moore's Law would hold true with its 2x bump. But disk speed is quickly becoming the biggest bottleneck in these kind of systems. Unless the OP has some serious RAID happening, and wants to fill the machine up with RAM, paying serious top dollar for it all I don't see there being any major performance boosts. Other than rendering video I haven't noticed an improvement or a drop in performance in the day to day operation of my Mac Pro 4,1 (dual quad 2.26) vs my old Mac Pro 1,1 (dual dual 2.66). Sure, that's thanks (in a large part) to the old Carbon-based Final Cut Pro code.

Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to build a small cluster if raw CPU power was what you were after?

Dutch H
11th June 2010, 06:57 PM
If you can afford a Mac Pro and need one for work, why don't you go BUY one rather than lament about it? The fact that you can afford one but instead choose to borrow a friend's iMac to do "work" is rather bluntly, ridiculous. Why not rent one for a while? Or buy an iMac and sell it later? Seems like this has got nothing to do with a new, updated Mac Pro because if you really needed one for work, you wouldn't be writing this 4 months after your previous workhorse died. No point wasting time speculating about why there's no MP, as mentioned before, it'll come when it comes. Relax big fella. Why would I pay $xxx amount to have older tech when all the sources were predicting the new model would be released soon. This was occurring in February. If you were in the same boat I am sure you would have waited. See it was a catch twenty two. I waited and waited and then the tech got older and older. So now I am at a point where I refuse to buy it at the price it is. I know if I placed an order tonight, the new model would come out next week.

And next time mate try to respond with less hostility. Your post reeks of an attitude to create confrontation.

dsiew
12th June 2010, 02:34 AM
Let me start off with apologies, I'm honestly not intending to be a jerk.

It seemed odd that one would patiently wait it out for new MPs when there was a (I'm assuming here) somewhat urgent need for a machine. The latest (Mac) technology is really only viable with either i5/i7 iMacs unless you wanted to pursue the Hackintosh/PCs route although both are not ideal solutions.

My MP situation was not too dissimilar to yours -- I also waited for a new MP to come out though I differ here as I did not need it. Months passed and I caught word of sub-$3K Octos popping up on the refurb store and I only happened to chance upon mine through a stroke of luck after many weeks of refreshing madly.

Old tech or not, the sub-$3K Octos on the refurb are still great value. However the issue with that is availability. Leon did reveal that the store updates at certain times in the day, which are not always reflected on the RSS feeds due to their popularity.

Tough spot to be in, but some temporary solutions are available...

Again, apologies for poor etiquette.

stewiesno1
12th June 2010, 10:37 AM
All around these and other forums , you will see commonly said expressions like " If you need one now - buy one , if not wait until the next model".
I am sure you could buy a fill in machine that would be more than adequate for your needs like a refurb or secondhand.
If you buy wisely and Apple do indeed release your dream machine in a month - six months or a year then sell the older one and buy a brand newie.
Two of my clients did exactly that with theirs - the first with a secondhand MacBook from his company that he sold a year later for only $100 less than he paid for it and the second actually made $150 over what he paid for his secondhand MacPro six months on.
In the meantime they were able to get on and use these computers for work then buy the model they wanted when they were announced.
Neither slowed them down in any way and losing $100 over six months in the case of the former is still pretty good value if it gets the job done.

Stewie

Dutch H
12th June 2010, 12:06 PM
Let me start off with apologies, I'm honestly not intending to be a jerk.

It seemed odd that one would patiently wait it out for new MPs when there was a (I'm assuming here) somewhat urgent need for a machine. The latest (Mac) technology is really only viable with either i5/i7 iMacs unless you wanted to pursue the Hackintosh/PCs route although both are not ideal solutions.

My MP situation was not too dissimilar to yours -- I also waited for a new MP to come out though I differ here as I did not need it. Months passed and I caught word of sub-$3K Octos popping up on the refurb store and I only happened to chance upon mine through a stroke of luck after many weeks of refreshing madly.

Old tech or not, the sub-$3K Octos on the refurb are still great value. However the issue with that is availability. Leon did reveal that the store updates at certain times in the day, which are not always reflected on the RSS feeds due to their popularity.

Tough spot to be in, but some temporary solutions are available...

Again, apologies for poor etiquette. All good mate. I got my back up a bit as well. Sorry. I think this topic just gets me angry. Haha. I see your point friend. I have waited this long now so I am prepared to wait longer. I don't need a Mac Pro right now but my life would be easier with it. Once again thanks for the apology. I am a lover not a fighter (unless I'm drunk, haha.) Take care.