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cmdwedge
25th August 2005, 02:13 PM
Ok!

Here's one little thing I'd like to get cleared up. If I want to buy a PC component, say, a new video card, I go here - http://www.staticice.com.au/ and I pick the cheapest place around (or perhaps the closest).

If I want to buy a Mac of some sort, I go to http://www.apple.com/au/store (or something like that). Obviously enough, Apple list the RRP for everything (as one would expect). But if I go to an Apple reseller, all of the prices are the same.

This just doesn't seem very fair at all.

Correct me if I'm way off.

wedge.

hawker
25th August 2005, 02:15 PM
Oh yay, one of these threads. *puts on flame suit*

I use a mac because I want to (sure I might pay a bit more, but 1. they look cool 2. they seem to last longer, 3. Windows sucks 4. Can't be stuffed learning Linux).

cmdwedge
25th August 2005, 02:20 PM
You think you need the flame suit?? Try being an openly pro-PC user in a Mac forum!

I'll be sacrificed to Steve Jobs in NO TIME. :)

OziMac
25th August 2005, 02:21 PM
cmdwedge

If I want to buy Apple components, the first place I would go is my local cheap computer shop - there I can source hard drives, RAM, PCI cards, monitors, keyboards, mice and many other peripherals.

Admittedly, graphics cards pose a different problem as they need to be flashed to work with Power PC, and Powermacs tend to use AGP or PCI-X, whereas the new standard appears to be PCI-E. In that case, I'd go online or an Apple reseller who could get a decent deal, or (as a last resort, begrudgingly) to the Apple Store.

However, by this time next year, I'll be able to do away with that last step and get an x86-compatible graphics card for my (hopefully) new Power Macintel. :)

Wally
25th August 2005, 02:22 PM
*Tugs* at hawkers suit

*Sighs* Im glad on the mac side of the fence..

Looks at hungry Dosgamers and laughs...

They went bezerk when i said i prefered macs to PCs because they are more advanced.

Disko
25th August 2005, 02:32 PM
You're right - Apple's pricing isn't fair for resellers or consumers. They hold all the cards, and the resellers get a fairly woeful margin on some apple hardware as is.

When it comes to buying a videocard, with the example you gave - damn right, that sucks. A couple of our members will easily be able to purchase the right PC card though, and flash it to work in mac fine. - but really, that sort of thing should be done at the manufacturer's level. It'd be dead easy for them to do that and sell the card at the same price for mac owners.

Byrd
25th August 2005, 02:32 PM
As soon as this thread turns into a Mac vs. PC topic, it'll be closed - these have been done to death elsewhere and always result in a flame or spam war of sorts.

Of course Apple hardware is expensive due to the considerably smaller market share vs. PC clones. Brand-name components are always overpriced - but someone must be buying it, and it's usually good quality stuff. But as OziMac said, it doesn't have to be like this when cheaper PC parts can be sourced from any store to upgrade your Mac.

At present, apart from CPUs, motherboard, and graphics cards (to a degree), everything other component is just as cheap. Look forward to next year, and we'll be able to walk down to the shops and get a CPU and graphics card upgrade from the same stores as everyone else, for the same price.

JB

cmdwedge
25th August 2005, 02:32 PM
Okies. So if you need a PCI-X card, what can you do? Do you have to buy it from Apple?

macsyd
25th August 2005, 02:33 PM
The beauty of the internet is that these days you can just google or go to an expert forum (such as this) to find out whether an Apple branded or Apple recommended component is required or not. I don't have to rely on the word of a biased salesperson/techie or Apple manual, etc.

Case in point, when it came time for me to get a USB Bluetooth dongle, the Apple recommended one was what I consider a rip-off. By searching on this very forum, I realised I didnt have to spend that money and could get almost any off the shelf type.

In the bad old days, before the web, without a network of informed people to rely on, I would probably have blindly gone to my local Apple Store and payed a fortune for RAM, hard drives, etc.

As for those small number of parts that are specific to Macs, happy to pay a bit more for the piece of mind and continued robustness of my system.

For me, a small price to pay. But that comes back to the subjectivity of the value equation.

cmdwedge
25th August 2005, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Byrd@Aug 25 2005, 02:32 PM
At present, apart from CPUs, motherboard, and graphics cards (to a degree), everything other component is just as cheap. Look forward to next year, and we'll be able to walk down to the shops and get a CPU and graphics card upgrade from the same stores as everyone else, for the same price.

Couldn't agree more. I just wish that Apple would sell OSX for x86, with no need for TPM. I'd buy it to 'have a play' in a snap. It looks pretty and my sister won't shut up about 'widgets'.

I'm concerned that whilst Tiger will run on x86 now, not everything will run, and you have to get fairly rigid sort of hardware specs to get it working 'right' (like SSE3). If only Apple stopped being a hardware company and started being a hardware/software company. *sigh*

onionhead
25th August 2005, 02:38 PM
Most peripherals items work fine on the mac. The reason why the vid cards are an issue is a fundamental architecture problem, also known as the nuXi problem.
X86 = little endian (Unix) and the PowerPC = big endian (nuXi)*

So any analog to digital stuff doesn’t work if it is hard wired. Some vid cards allow bios flashes, I flashed a 3dfx card from PC to mac about a 1000 years ago. :thumbup:

In most cases, if a mac version of the bios does not exist or the card has hard wired A to D stuff, then you are SOL.

In conclusion, mac vid cards are expensive, and it is the x86 PC’s fault. :P

* it is dual-endian, but apples architecture is big-endian

Some links

Endianess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness)

iMick
25th August 2005, 02:38 PM
The only part I have ever bought at the applestore has been vid cards (only once because of failure out of warranty) I don't need to upgrade because I am not a graphic designer and my XP box only used as an "expensive xbox". Everything else I get through Umart or wholesalers in brisbane. Desktop and lappy RAM, HDDs, bluetooth and wireless for older machines are all standard components which saves heaps. It is quite econimical to upgrade older macs this way to run OSX.

hawker
25th August 2005, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Disko@Aug 25 2005, 02:02 PM
You're right - Apple's pricing isn't fair for resellers or consumers. They hold all the cards, and the resellers get a fairly woeful margin on some apple hardware as is.
As long as its not from Apple, any mac stuff, STM bags etc I get at cost. So what I pay for with Apple, I make up for in extras ;)

the_OM
25th August 2005, 02:43 PM
From what i've seen, it's really only graphics cards that you have the massive price diffrences on. Every else just seems to be standard mac/pc compliant components (except the cpu and motherboard).

Is there something specific other than the graphics card that your referring to that can't sourced from any where except Apple (even pc graphics cards can be flashed nowadays too)?
Or are you just talking about the huge price that Apple charge for these components?

Disko
25th August 2005, 02:51 PM
actually, something really funny is when i hear stories about people who try to buy Ram for their mac from a PC store.
Customer: "This is for my imac."
Sales guy: "Oh, (laughs) this wont work in a mac."

I've had a guy say that to me on the phone when i was asking if they had a HD in stock. So my advice: Be sure of what you're getting before you go to get it, and don't ask the sales punks for advice unless you want to toy with them. :)

edit: *moved to hardware general*

cmdwedge
25th August 2005, 03:01 PM
OK.. so if you were to buy a Mac of any sort, you'd try to buy the lowest-end Mac you could so you could just go buy the upgrade bits? Like, buy a Mac mini with base RAM and HDD so as to plonk in another Gb and a 200gb HDD?

onionhead
25th August 2005, 03:05 PM
Don't know of many 200Gb laptop drives, which you would need to fit in a minimac. But all of my freind who have bought minimacs, bought them with least ram and then upgraded.

Disko
25th August 2005, 03:08 PM
Not at all. The parts you can't buy are the motherboard and CPU.

Say we're talking powermacs though - you could buy the 2.3GHz model and put your savings (from not getting the 2.7) into more ram, faster HD, etc - and it'll probably come close to out performing the 2.7 without those upgrades.

cmdwedge
25th August 2005, 03:10 PM
Christ, I just looked at the price of the 2.3Ghz Powermac, and nearly upchucked my lunch. You cannot possibly be serious saying that Macs are not that expensive.

Edit: $3999 WITHOUT A MONITOR. That's just insane.

Disko
25th August 2005, 03:15 PM
Whats insane is you posting that to an apple forum thinking we'd care? :)

cmdwedge
25th August 2005, 03:22 PM
Are you comfortable spending that much money for a computer that is TERRIBLY underpowered compared to it's PC brothers?

$4k for a computer with 512mb of RAM and a Radeon 9600. You have to be joking. How can you possibly stomach such a rort?

the_OM
25th August 2005, 03:23 PM
It's insane?

Don't you know that we're all under the spell of Steve Jobs' reality distortion field? We'd pay $500 for shit on a stick if it had an apple logo on it.

Edit: I'm comfortable...... who else is comfortable?

cmdwedge
25th August 2005, 03:27 PM
OK, so if you were able to run Tiger on a home-made x86 platform, where everything software-wise worked, for half the price, would you do it, or would you still buy the Apple-branded stuff?

Disko
25th August 2005, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by the_OM@Aug 25 2005, 02:53 PM
Don't you know that we're all under the spell of Steve Jobs' reality distortion field? We'd pay $500 for shit on a stick if it had an apple logo on it.
haha, now come on - the iPod shuffle isn't *that* bad. :D

Edit: I'm comfortable...... who else is comfortable?Damn comfortable. :)

macsyd
25th August 2005, 03:29 PM
I'm comfortable. Very comfortable.

My PowerMac G51.6 was, relative to it's PC distant cousins, a little expensive when I bought it. I've gotten far more value out of it than I ever have out of any of my many, many Windows boxes.

At the risk of using a well-worn pun out, I have to say don't compare Apple's to Orange's cmdwedge. Oh dear, have we now crossed back into Mac v PC debate? I'm outa here....

cmdwedge
25th August 2005, 03:33 PM
OK, so it's $4000 for the base model 2.3 *snigger* Powermac.

To make it usable, you'd first add at LEAST another 512Mb of RAM. And you'd need a monitor of some sort. So realistically, it's circa $4800 for a midrange Powermac on your desk and running.

Look, all pretentious wankery aside, you can't be serious. I could build (in fact, HAVE BUILT) a PC that would slaughter any current Mac in basically any task, and I could do it for $2000 less. I just do it without a logo on the side.

*stares in disbelief*

Mac OSX is pretty, but not for $5000.

Edit: And I could run OSX on it too, and still beat any benchmarks.

OziMac
25th August 2005, 03:37 PM
Okay, we've given you a bone... and you've resorted to trolling.

You want Mac OS X? Shell out $700 for a Mini. If you're not prepared to pay, then best of luck to you getting your hands on whatever you can floating round the web.

I hope you don't think I'm being unreasonable or elitist, but this discussion is serving no purpose other than flame provoking. If you'd like to continue to discuss something along these lines, feel free to do so - but do keep it civil and reasonable.

*CLOSED*

[EDIT - I do appreciate your most recent edit of your last post cmewedge, it would have made a difference, but the thread's still gone down the tube. Sorry.]