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Kzach
12th June 2009, 12:02 PM
...or is Apple, inch-by-inch, becoming more and more like Microsoft the more successful they become?

I mean in the sense of promising features and not delivering. Of shoddy manufacturing. Of cutthroat tactics to push out competitors, etc.

They've always had similarities but I guess they were excused in the past because they were the underdog. Things change but their tactics, marketing and product seem to have really slid down the toilet in recent years.

Mainly this is prompted by the information on Snow Leopard and all the features that it WON'T have that were gossiped about and even promoted by Apple themselves. Reminds me a lot of Vista.

Maybe I'm just less apologetic these days since Apple are doing so well as a company, I have less sympathy for them when they fail to deliver.

tcn33
12th June 2009, 12:07 PM
I was just thinking about this today, kind of.

We know that SL will be a $29 USD upgrade for 10.5 users, but $169 in the SL/iLife pack for 10.4 users. How exactly are Apple going to police this? Either a) they don't, in the same way they've never policed single vs family pack, or b) activation a la Windows.

If it turns out to be b), the tubes will be chock full of "Goddamn Apple are just like Microsoft!!!!!" etc.

LCGuy
12th June 2009, 12:29 PM
I'd say that Apple will go down the same route as MS with the Snow Leopard upgrade - either it will only allow you to upgrade an existing installation, or it will ask you to insert the Leopard DVD. I can't imagine Apple implementing activation any time soon - Steve Jobs is supposed to be against DRM, or so he says anyway.

Lutze
12th June 2009, 12:41 PM
It's going to be exactly like a drop in for a new release OS on hardware that the stores have in stock.

NeoRicen
12th June 2009, 12:56 PM
Mainly this is prompted by the information on Snow Leopard and all the features that it WON'T have that were gossiped about and even promoted by Apple themselves. Reminds me a lot of Vista.
What are you talking about? All the features Snow Leopard was going to have it has...

I was just thinking about this today, kind of.

We know that SL will be a $29 USD upgrade for 10.5 users, but $169 in the SL/iLife pack for 10.4 users. How exactly are Apple going to police this? Either a) they don't, in the same way they've never policed single vs family pack, or b) activation a la Windows.

If it turns out to be b), the tubes will be chock full of "Goddamn Apple are just like Microsoft!!!!!" etc.
Why not just detect what OS is installed already and don't let the $29 upgrade work on machines with 10.4?

semaja2
12th June 2009, 01:20 PM
Windows XP upgrades were run the install, if a clean install it will ask you for the old OS win 98, if upgrade install it will scan the harddrive for the old

Aaron
12th June 2009, 01:24 PM
What are you talking about? All the features Snow Leopard was going to have it has...


What about the magical disappearance of ZFS support?

Lutze
12th June 2009, 01:30 PM
What about the magical disappearance of ZFS support?

Was never part of Snow Leopard. It was in SL Server.... and has been removed - possibly because of Sun Micro / Oracle - possibly because it simply had problems.

I'd rather they release an OS that is stable. If ZFS was causing problems why run with it?

Aaron
12th June 2009, 01:32 PM
Was never part of Snow Leopard. It was in SL Server.... and has been removed - possibly because of Sun Micro / Oracle - possibly because it simply had problems.

I'd rather they release an OS that is stable. If ZFS was causing problems why run with it?

Oops - In either case, I'm very happy with the "feature set" of Snow Leopard, ZFS missing doesn't have any effect on me :p

dopus
12th June 2009, 01:40 PM
ZFS was only going to be implemented in Snow Leopard Server, wasn't it? I thought the client version could read it, but not write it at all.

mac_man_luke
12th June 2009, 01:42 PM
I think apple wont police the "upgrade" - if someone is going to do the right thing they will, if they arnt trying to stop them wont work - they will just work around it.

thorevenge
12th June 2009, 02:18 PM
Lutze is right.

It will be like the dropin disks for the upgrade only version. No Archive and Install for you.

tcn33
12th June 2009, 02:30 PM
Why not just detect what OS is installed already and don't let the $29 upgrade work on machines with 10.4?

An installation disc that doesn't allow a clean install or an install on a blank disc? Not a chance. Apple would be murdered for that, and rightly so.

Lutze
12th June 2009, 02:49 PM
An installation disc that doesn't allow a clean install or an install on a blank disc? Not a chance. Apple would be murdered for that, and rightly so.

It's kind of weird. The 10a380 release actually works inside the OS. You mount the disk and hit the install button. It then asks you where you want to install and the usual questions that you get after the first reboot.

The new install strips leopard bare. Removes everything and starts afresh, leaving the home folder intact. However I've not tried to do a clean install on it (it's not my computer to wipe!) I'll see what I can find out tonight.

The install proccess is much nicer now. Very simple and easy to understand.

thorevenge
12th June 2009, 03:21 PM
An installation disc that doesn't allow a clean install or an install on a blank disc? Not a chance. Apple would be murdered for that, and rightly so.

I've seen the effects of the Leopard drop-in disc that people have tried to run on its own without upgrading and undertaken it myself from my service days.

Its not pretty.

This is for the upgrade only.

I'm sure the $149 SL/iLife 09 WILL be a full installation disc ala Leopard Retail etc.

Kzach
12th June 2009, 03:55 PM
I'd rather they release an OS that is stable. If ZFS was causing problems why run with it?

The last few OS updates have been anything but stable. The last two stalled for me during the process and hard crashed the Mac. The only way I could upgrade was by downloading the full combo update and manually installing.

But this was a general question. Has Apple gone up or down in quality, service, attitude, etc. in the last few years?

Lutze
12th June 2009, 04:00 PM
Has Apple gone up or down in quality, service, attitude, etc. in the last few years?

If I was running mission critical gear I would not install v1 of anything (hardware or software) until it had been tested to run on a similar system.

As a user I would not buy rev1 of any consumer product again. I've bought Sony Mini Disk recorders in the past and had to get 6 new ones. I've had a problem with my iMac where the dvd drive has got screwy but I'm getting that fixed (out of my own pocket).

I guess that, at the end of the day, the CSAT files show that more Apple owners are happy with their stuff than windows owners. That's all I can say.

thorevenge
12th June 2009, 04:37 PM
The last few OS updates have been anything but stable. The last two stalled for me during the process and hard crashed the Mac. The only way I could upgrade was by downloading the full combo update and manually installing.

This is a notorious problem with the automatic software update service. I refuse to use it for this very reason despite the fact that I would get the updates quote free.

And tbh, I think the transition to Intel has led to a lower quality of parts and the OS code. Though from my understanding this isn't an uncommon thing when look at the architecture of x86 processors.

dolbinau
12th June 2009, 04:42 PM
What features has Microsoft promised on Windows that they never delivered?

thebookfreak58
12th June 2009, 05:00 PM
What features has Microsoft promised on Windows that they never delivered?

Have a read about "Longhorn".

WinFS would of been quite nice.

Brains
12th June 2009, 06:00 PM
Apple died when they switched to Intel. Since then, their quality of hardware has sunk to new levels of low, their OS has become a bloated, ungainly behemoth full of un-necessary crap and bling, and their provided productivity apps have killed off so much possible competition. Apple and Microsoft now both make "good enough" products", they stopped making "good" products years ago.

Lutze
12th June 2009, 06:07 PM
Apple died when they switched to Intel. Blah blah blah more hate for one big corp against another....

My respect for you has just vanished. You know your stuff, but boy do you throw your vitreol down other peoples throats.

http://www.fallen-legion.eu/news/data/upimages/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

dekco
12th June 2009, 06:34 PM
...
As a user I would not buy rev1 of any consumer product again. I've bought Sony Mini Disk recorders in the past and had to get 6 new ones. ...
you werent the proud owner of a mz-n1?? they suffered head failure in mass numbers.
wasnt long after, i moved over to sharp with their auvi offerings :D

ClockWork
12th June 2009, 06:37 PM
Apple died when they switched to Intel. Since then, their quality of hardware has sunk to new levels of low, their OS has become a bloated, ungainly behemoth full of un-necessary crap and bling, and their provided productivity apps have killed off so much possible competition. Apple and Microsoft now both make "good enough" products", they stopped making "good" products years ago.

I gotta agree with Brains.

After some 14 years of use, the evolution of big cats, and the material components, Apple has become less and less reliable.

So many problems with Leopard, and it's amazing to see how many iMacs have to get their logic boards replaced after 3 months.

Even down to tiny weeny things - like registering for AppleCare - one used to fill out a card with the S/N Number & their details and post it off.
Now, the average punter has no idea how to do it - ie: create an Apple ID first etc etc.

It's almost like Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream Company, which started out as a novel and superior product run by two young hippies, and then Häagen-Daz, a vast corporation, tried to cut them out of the ice cream picture, and then years and years later, they're eating Häagen-Daz for breakfast!

Just for me personally, Apple used to be synonymous with art and design, and now it does all the same crap as Windows.

iLife '06 was really clever, and every iLife to follow has been real hard to understand and buggy.

Leopard is bug city.

Lutze
12th June 2009, 06:41 PM
I gotta agree with Brains.

After some 14 years of use, the evolution of big cats, and the material components, Apple has become less and less reliable.

So many problems with Leopard, and it's amazing to see how many iMacs have to get their logic boards replaced after 3 months.

Even down to tiny weeny things - like registering for AppleCare - one used to fill out a card with the S/N Number & their details and post it off.
Now, the average punter has no idea how to do it - ie: create an Apple ID first etc etc.

It's almost like Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream Company, which started out as a novel and superior product run by two young hippies, and then Häagen-Dazs, a vast corporation, tried to cut them out of the ice cream picture, and then years and years later, they're eating Häagen-Dazs for breakfast!

Just for me personally, Apple used to be synonymous with art and design, and now it does all the same crap as Windows.

iLife '06 was really clever, and every iLife to follow has been real hard to understand and buggy.

Leopard is bug city.

You don't think that this might be because the install base is now a lot larger? The hardware is certainly not made to the spec that it was years ago... but then show me a company that works to a budget, that is fighting a battle against a bigger and entrenched company that doesn't suffer a bit from sloppyness.

The moves that Apple have made in their laptops (unibody) should, and in my view has been confirmed by the price reduction, lower the failure rate. If Apple keeps moving in this direction I think that their fault rate will decline over time.

NeoRicen
12th June 2009, 07:45 PM
I gotta agree with Brains.

After some 14 years of use, the evolution of big cats, and the material components, Apple has become less and less reliable.

So many problems with Leopard, and it's amazing to see how many iMacs have to get their logic boards replaced after 3 months.

Even down to tiny weeny things - like registering for AppleCare - one used to fill out a card with the S/N Number & their details and post it off.
Now, the average punter has no idea how to do it - ie: create an Apple ID first etc etc.

It's almost like Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream Company, which started out as a novel and superior product run by two young hippies, and then Häagen-Daz, a vast corporation, tried to cut them out of the ice cream picture, and then years and years later, they're eating Häagen-Daz for breakfast!

Just for me personally, Apple used to be synonymous with art and design, and now it does all the same crap as Windows.

iLife '06 was really clever, and every iLife to follow has been real hard to understand and buggy.

Leopard is bug city.


Apple died when they switched to Intel. Since then, their quality of hardware has sunk to new levels of low, their OS has become a bloated, ungainly behemoth full of un-necessary crap and bling, and their provided productivity apps have killed off so much possible competition. Apple and Microsoft now both make "good enough" products", they stopped making "good" products years ago.
I have no idea what either of you are talking about, it makes no sense and goes completely against my experiences.

saphylia
12th June 2009, 08:37 PM
I have no idea what either of you are talking about, it makes no sense and goes completely against my experiences.

Alright, lets imagine for a second that apple stuck with PPC Chips. We would be stuck with our amazing powerbook G5 (and subsequent "help i'm sterile apple" complaints) and various other outperformed beasts. Switching to intel allowed apple to boost the performance of their products no end, sure its been a bit bumpy but I'd hardly call it unstable. No more weird installations of yaBOOT for one thing :p

http://www.rkdigital.net/news/17085pBookG5.jpg

[ I'm still scared of yaBOOT ]: ]

Gio
12th June 2009, 08:58 PM
Interesting comparisons.
Take your choice:
Price- which in at least a dozen threads here is criticized OR
Quality at a price. I'm sure Apple could make a $5000 base imac that is indestructible. But Applecare would be useless in 3 years when Apple is in the gutter.

At least Apple tries to balance quality and price. Are you not happy paying a premium knowing that a good % is going into R&D?

maghemi
12th June 2009, 09:02 PM
Well I've personally not run into ANY problems with my intel mac experiences.

My partner does have crashes in leopard every now and then, but that's usually after the mac being on for two weeks plus with Hundreds of apps and web pages open constantly.

I sincerely doubt sticking to powerpc would have fixed that. Look at all the trouble they had with the last lot of G5 powermacs.

I don't for a second say apple is perfect, but personally my change from PC's to Mac(intel) has me with a MUCH smoother computer experience.

Phormic
12th June 2009, 09:41 PM
I have no idea what either of you are talking about, it makes no sense and goes completely against my experiences.

Same here.

There's a serious case of looking back through rose coloured glasses in this thread. I remember the days of system crashes from extension conflicts, a glacial rate of processor advancement, ropey half-arsed system software and a Russian roulette style of peripheral functionality (if you even had peripherals to buy at all) and these were the, "good ol' days"?

Seriously. Get a grip.

cejay
12th June 2009, 09:44 PM
But if they hadn't changed the way they did business and who they appealed to, I wouldn't be a customer.

This sounds like the conversations people have when cool band that they've discovered becomes popular with all the uncool kids and suddenly they've sold out and just aren't as good anymore.

dolbinau
12th June 2009, 09:52 PM
But if they hadn't changed the way they did business and who they appealed to, I wouldn't be a customer.

This sounds like the conversations people have when cool band that they've discovered becomes popular with all the uncool kids and suddenly they've sold out and just aren't as good anymore.

How have they changed dramatically since PPC Macs?

The claim is that Apple has gotten worse in the past couple of years, not that mac OS 1 was Apple's hay day.

cosmichobo
12th June 2009, 09:56 PM
Macs have always cost more than PCs. One of the reasons, at least as far as I used to defend the brand with, was build quality. Good quality parts, good quality products.

I bought an eMac in 2004, and it contained bad capacitors, which as I understand, were one of the cheapest on the market. (Same problem for iMac G5s and... PowerMac G5s?)

White Macbooks commonly it seems have fracture issues.

Yet, whilst yes, the margin between Mac and PC has evened out a bit, there is still a sizeable price difference between the two...

I know a lot of Apple money goes into R&D... and I think that's great, cos they really do develop a lot of great shit... but it'd be nice if more quality control was maintained...

I don't think the OS can be particular blamed for much... Mac OS X is amazing really... though I'm not familiar with Leopard, which does maybe appear a bit blingy... we're a lot more stable than OS 9 ever was...

Oh yeah - and... the whole non-removable battery caper... that's rude.

NeoRicen
12th June 2009, 10:04 PM
But if they hadn't changed the way they did business and who they appealed to, I wouldn't be a customer.

This sounds like the conversations people have when cool band that they've discovered becomes popular with all the uncool kids and suddenly they've sold out and just aren't as good anymore.
It's Popular, Now it Sucks - Television Tropes & Idioms (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle6cd1cskka05i?from=Main.ItsPopularNowItSucks)

Geoff3DMN
12th June 2009, 10:08 PM
The problem with bad capacitors effected just about every computer manufacturer on the planet and it was outside the control of all of them. That is to say a significant percentage of that type of capacitor was faulty across the world market. In a similar way that Nvidia have dropped the ball with 9600GT chips.

The white macbook cracking issue however is something that's squarely at Apple's doorstep.

Lutze
12th June 2009, 10:09 PM
White Macbooks commonly it seems have fracture issues.

And Apples answer to that is the unibody. Build quality is, as I've said, probably one the best reasons for the price reduction on the updates.

cejay
12th June 2009, 10:14 PM
Because people like me, Windows users, were scared off by their pricing and their 'difference'. It's sad I know and it's irrational, but you tend to stick with what you know.

Either way, my Unibody MB is so much better than ANY PC that I've ever owned, I can only imagine what they were like before. Or is that rose tinted specs people are looking through?

Geoff3DMN
12th June 2009, 10:22 PM
Either way, my Unibody MB is so much better than ANY PC that I've ever owned, I can only imagine what they were like before. Or is that rose tinted specs people are looking through?

Rose coloured specs :)

My unibody is much better built than my MacBook Pro (the case warped on that) and much better built than the white macbook that our daughter has.

My current MacMini runs cooler and heaps faster than my old G4 mini.

My iMac C2D runs cooler and faster than my old work iMac G5.

I could go on but you get the picture...

chip
12th June 2009, 10:25 PM
What about the magical disappearance of ZFS support?

I'm pissed that ZFS has been dropped, as it was based on their statements that ZFS would be included in 10.6 that I recommended we purchase the 36 month Server Maintenance kit with out last batch of Xserves. We should be covered until 10.7 is released, but it's not the first time I've been burned by Apple changing the story. It'd be nice if they could supply a roadmap, and manage to stick to it.

For the mean time, I've opted for an OpenSolaris based NAS, with a bunch of SAS drives in a ZFS array.

I don't get how you guys can confidently argue about variations in failure rates of apple hardware over time without some sort of hard figures (hint: having owned 3 machines is not a big enough sample).

Lutze
12th June 2009, 10:29 PM
I'm pissed that ZFS has been dropped, as it was based on their statements that ZFS would be included in 10.6 that I recommended we purchase the 36 month Server Maintenance kit with out last batch of Xserves. We should be covered until 10.7 is released, but it's not the first time I've been burned by Apple changing the story. It'd be nice if they could supply a roadmap, and manage to stick to it.

For the mean time, I've opted for an OpenSolaris based NAS, with a bunch of SAS drives in a ZFS array.

I don't get how you guys can confidently argue about variations in failure rates of apple hardware over time without some sort of hard figures (hint: having owned 3 machines is not a big enough sample).

I understand your pain, but seriously? You made a purchase based on information about a beta OS?

I learned my lesson when Leopard came out and Airport Extremes / Time Machine support vanished. I would never purchase anything again based on beta information.

lazychef
12th June 2009, 10:38 PM
As a recent Windows -> Mac convert I think that Apple have been going down the correct path for a very long time. Their products are so user friendly and well designed, I feel they are much easier to work with than a Windows based machine.

Watching demo's and keynotes on the Apple site is what prompted me to convert. The iPhone has revolutionised a lot in the technology world, I feel. It can only keep getting better and growing. There are so many users on here who have said in the other threads they will be upgrading straight away, I hope those users were not ones who have ridiculed Apple in this thread.

Sure there are a few problems with the OS (I haven't used anything circa 10.5.6 so I can't comment on install a new OS etc), hardware faults in laptops etc. Show me a company that has such a high reputation and makes 0 mistakes with the things they do and I'll be impressed.

Another thing which impressed me was how often/well Apple update/upgrade everything. From their hardware to the software everything is always being looked at for R&D and updates coming out weekly. Windows you install SP2 and then you won't have anything for another year. Look at the OS - People are probably still using Windows 98, there was no Windows 99 or Windows 2001 etc. Apple upgrade their OS regularly and I think it shows with slight improvements each time. I doubt we will ever see a perfect OS, but they are definately trying.

It's a MacTalk forum, I doubt there would be more than 5% of users on here who don't have at least 1 Apple product.
If you don't like the way Apple is heading, sell your gear and go live with the wolves (back to Windows) I know I won't be joining you.

tcn33
12th June 2009, 11:16 PM
I gotta agree with Brains.

So many problems with Leopard

You're the only user I see consistently bag Leopard.

and it's amazing to see how many iMacs have to get their logic boards replaced after 3 months.

The last iMac I saw get frequent logic board upgrades under warranty was the G5. For the slow among you, that's not an Intel product.


Even down to tiny weeny things - like registering for AppleCare - one used to fill out a card with the S/N Number & their details and post it off.
Now, the average punter has no idea how to do it - ie: create an Apple ID first etc etc.
Are you serious? It's okay to have an Apple ID to register the product or to use iTunes but it's a giant burden when it comes to an extended warranty? Please.

chip
12th June 2009, 11:23 PM
You made a purchase based on information about a beta OS?

I wasn't working from the beta (not signed up to the full developer program), I was working from the word of Apple engineers from Cupertino and Australia. Apple's drip feed of information and the rumour mill might work well getting consumers in a lather for the next shiny retail product, but it's shithouse for enterprise customers trying to plan ahead.

I'm fortunate that in having built a heterogenous environment, there are multiple options when a vendor lets me down. And Apple are not unique in this regard.

dotnet
13th June 2009, 12:37 AM
You're the only user I see consistently bag Leopard.

Then maybe there is something wrong with your vision (or perception). I don't remember CW commenting a lot on Leopard at all. And he's certainly not the only one here pointing out Leopard (or OS X in general) issues.

Asking someone to replace their brand of rose coloured glasses with yours is not really convincing.

Cheers
Steffen.

tcn33
13th June 2009, 01:24 AM
Then maybe there is something wrong with your vision (or perception). I don't remember CW commenting a lot on Leopard at all. And he's certainly not the only one here pointing out Leopard (or OS X in general) issues.

Maybe he's not, but he's among the more visible. From the first twenty-five results for "Leopard" by ClockWork:
http://forums.mactalk.com.au/10/65156-imac-lost-bluetooth.html#post789109
http://forums.mactalk.com.au/14/64567-kernel-panic-please-help.html#post782743
http://forums.mactalk.com.au/14/64369-safari-doesnt-load-new-web-pages-but-firefox-does.html#post782747
http://forums.mactalk.com.au/14/64567-kernel-panic-please-help.html#post784094
http://forums.mactalk.com.au/11/62874-help-log-file-nearly-400gb.html#post781630
http://forums.mactalk.com.au/14/62975-dvd-player-app-wont-play-dvds.html#post768691
http://forums.mactalk.com.au/11/62753-polls-bakground-white-black.html#post766228
http://forums.mactalk.com.au/14/62497-okay-getting-annoying-tab-key.html#post763885
http://forums.mactalk.com.au/11/62154-classic-environment-no-longer-supported.html#post760618

It's not a slam on CW, he's entitled to his opinion. But I don't think it's "[my] vision (or perception)" to say he consistently bashes Leopard when 36% of his recent output is exactly that.


Asking someone to replace their brand of rose coloured glasses with yours is not really convincing.
Nice straw man.

dotnet
13th June 2009, 01:32 AM
See, he's not out to "bag" it at all. He's asking for help. Does that annoy you?

Cheers
Steffen.

NeoRicen
13th June 2009, 01:42 AM
See, he's not out to "bag" it at all. He's asking for help. Does that annoy you?

Cheers
Steffen.
Did you read any of the links? They weren't his threads, they were him responding to questions for help while using it as an opportunity to slam Leopard, as if the problem the poster had was par for the course.

I'm not saying he was wrong or that he spends most of his time doing that or he's the only one, but the links do say what tcn33 said they did.

Brains
13th June 2009, 02:06 AM
My respect for you has just vanished. You know your stuff, but boy do you throw your vitreol down other peoples throats.

Kzach wanted to know if others felt as he, that Apple had become too big for their white shiny boots and were shipping shit. I agreed, and stated why.

Clockwork and I have been working on the insides of Macs (and we'll admit it, PCs) for a long time -- twenty eight years I've been an Apple tech in one form or another. The last seven years, I've seen Apple join The Asian Hoards (no that's not a mis-spelling) in shovelling crap from the bottoms of Chinese peasants into shiny boxes and selling it as American technology. The last three years, this peasant poo has taken on a much more runny consistency, and the percentage of machines sick to machines sold is rising. The cardboard motherboard school of design is driving good techs out of the industry as double-sided stickytape and non-adhesive glue replaces screws, leaving incompetents to spend twice as long replacing a thousand-dollar part (and with a good chance of it going into the machine dead anyway) as it takes a good tech to find out what's actually wrong with the bloody thing. The net result is more non-degradable shit going into landfill at an ever increasing rate.

Seriously, I might as well eat my wallet and shit into two buckets, send the larger bucket to Beijing and the smaller to One Infinite Loop. At least I avoid the middle man, I create less landfill, and I'm about as productive.

The software isn't any better, either; why does it take 2 GB of code-space and 4 GHz of computing power to do what you used to be able to do with 300 MB of code-space and 300 MHz of grunt? Windows Vista or OSX 10.5, they're just the same -- more bling than substance, just that Apple bothers to paint a bit more detail on their shit than Redmond do.

Back in yer fuckin' box, Sweeper, no dlang in your pling tonight.

ClockWork
13th June 2009, 03:26 AM
It's not a slam on CW, he's entitled to his opinion. But I don't think it's "[my] vision (or perception)" to say he consistently bashes Leopard when 36% of his recent output is exactly that.


Shit!

This is just like Big Brother...

only someone's watching

dotnet
13th June 2009, 04:09 AM
Did you read any of the links?

No, I didn't re-read them, I'm not that anal. I just drew upon my recollection of the threads.

Whatever you say, I just can't think of CW as the "bagging" or "slamming" type. You, on the other hand, can't seem to agree with anything anybody says around here, ever. Unlike CW you come across to me as a very combative and oppositional character. So each to their own.

Cheers
Steffen.

morn
13th June 2009, 10:46 AM
Steve Jobs is supposed to be against DRM, or so he says anyway.


Uhh, you have seen the iPhone right? :confused:




And Brains, Apple's build quality as reached new heights with the Unibody MBP. Look at these photos by comparison.
http://s1.guide-images.ifixit.com/igi/CRBYPZtYRqpWYY4O.large
2007 Aluminium MBP
http://s1.guide-images.ifixit.com/igi/RJNdtkvPDvpTymoX.large
2008 Unibody MBP

Snow Leopard also been ported to 64 bit. Things like Grand Central and OpenCL are really innovative stuff though, these are solving big computer science problems, parallelism, and will allow some apps to be several times faster by using the GPU.

And the iPhone is apple's most sigificant product since the launch of the original Macintosh. I think Apple is at the top of their game right now, the best the company has ever been.

rodeodee
13th June 2009, 11:26 AM
The software isn't any better, either; why does it take 2 GB of code-space and 4 GHz of computing power to do what you used to be able to do with 300 MB of code-space and 300 MHz of grunt? Windows Vista or OSX 10.5, they're just the same -- more bling than substance, just that Apple bothers to paint a bit more detail on their shit than Redmond do.


I wonder about this often too. I do remember though that System 7x and 8x both were prone to complete hangs, and windows was of course no better.

There is far more stability on either side of the platform, but the size of the system installs and apps is crazy big. Some of the seamless things are lovely though. I find OSX very solid generally.

I used to get a lot done on an old powermac (and dare i say, a windows box as well.)

Phormic
13th June 2009, 12:18 PM
The last seven years, I've seen Apple join The Asian Hoards (no that's not a mis-spelling) in shovelling crap from the bottoms of Chinese peasants into shiny boxes and selling it as American technology. The last three years, this peasant poo has taken on a much more runny consistency, and the percentage of machines sick to machines sold is rising.
Seriously, I might as well eat my wallet and shit into two buckets, send the larger bucket to Beijing and the smaller to One Infinite Loop. At least I avoid the middle man, I create less landfill, and I'm about as productive.

Just out of interest, do you have a problem with Apple's crap shovelled from Irish peasants in their manufacturing facilities in Cork, put in boxes and sold as American technology?

Or is that OK because Ireland is a western country?

Lutze
13th June 2009, 12:26 PM
Back in yer fuckin' box, Sweeper, no dlang in your pling tonight.

Now that is a great comeback! Love it. (And for those of you who don't get Brains' comment - I'm not being sarcastic)

I guess my response to your comment is this - the number of CPU fails that I've seen has never been lower. Logic boards come and go, my G5 iMac of old had the capacitor issue. But mostly these days I hear about component issues rather than actual build quality.

I have worked for the largest PC maker for schools in Europe and I have also worked for Sun Microsystems. Obviously Sun Micro build (or at least, did build) to a different world. Apple is in between, but more towards the Sun end because their design forces it.

I watched an install of SL last night - 3Gb was the install size. The only reason for bloat may have been all that clunky PPC stuff? Oh and rosetta can be added to that install (300k)

ClockWork
13th June 2009, 04:03 PM
I feel that the essential problem surrounding this argument, on the part of those who are enraged by disagreement, upon... let's say Leopard, has nothing to do with Leopard itself.

People who are madly in love with Leopard or Intel Apples didn't just invest in them financially. I believe they invested in them "emotionally" also.
That is, they have integrated the Operating System and Hardware with their own identity - with "themselves" personally.

So... if, for instance I should say something along the lines that I feel Leopard is not so good, to a person with an emotional involvement with this OS, who has personally identified with the OS, I am not insulting the OS, yet it may look as though I am attacking them personally.

ie: This is not Mac OS 10.5 you're demeaning. This is Me!

Perhaps re-watch Fight Club.

"No, sir. I loved that condo. I loved every stick of furniture in that place. That wasn't just a place full of stuff that got burned - that was ME!"
I'd like to thank the academy..."

NeoRicen
13th June 2009, 05:32 PM
Whatever you say, I just can't think of CW as the "bagging" or "slamming" type. You, on the other hand, can't seem to agree with anything anybody says around here, ever. Unlike CW you come across to me as a very combative and oppositional character. So each to their own.
Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)

That goes for you, me, tcn33 and everyone else on the planet.



I feel that the essential problem surrounding this argument, on the part of those who are enraged by disagreement, upon... let's say Leopard, has nothing to do with Leopard itself.

People who are madly in love with Leopard or Intel Apples didn't just invest in them financially. I believe they invested in them "emotionally" also.
That is, they have integrated the Operating System and Hardware with their own identity - with "themselves" personally.

So... if, for instance I should say something along the lines that I feel Leopard is not so good, to a person with an emotional involvement with this OS, who has personally identified with the OS, I am not insulting the OS, yet it may look as though I am attacking them personally.

ie: This is not Mac OS 10.5 you're demeaning. This is Me!

Perhaps re-watch Fight Club.

"No, sir. I loved that condo. I loved every stick of furniture in that place. That wasn't just a place full of stuff that got burned - that was ME!"
I'd like to thank the academy..."
It's incredibly easy to say exactly the same thing about people who don't like Leopard, because they've become emotionally attached to 10.4, their G4s or whatever.

The simple fact of the matter is that Leopard has been a largely problem free piece of software for me and many others, and I've used, and enjoyed using, many of it's features. It doesn't have to become an issue about emotional attachment. Just because your experiences lead you to believe Leopard is full of issues doesn't mean that people who haven't had them and have had a good experience are somehow blinded by emotional attachment, and to think so is being guilty of what you're accusing people of.

I think most people's harsh reactions to some of these criticisms, certainly mine, come not from interpreting them as personal attacks, even if only subconsciously, but from being told that your experiences aren't real and somehow invalid simply because you disagree with them.

Read this argument and see how simply pointing the argument at you all of a sudden exposes the complete lack of logic:

I feel that the essential problem surrounding this argument, on the part of those who are enraged by disagreement, upon... let's say Leopard, has nothing to do with Leopard itself.

People who are madly in love with Older OSs or PPC Apples didn't just invest in them financially. I believe they invested in them "emotionally" also.
That is, they have integrated the Operating System and Hardware with their own identity - with "themselves" personally.

So... if, for instance I should say something along the lines that I feel Leopard is good, to a person with an emotional involvement with an earlier OS, who has personally identified with the OS, I am not insulting the OS, yet it may look as though I am attacking them personally.

ie: This is not Mac OS 10.2/10.3/10.4 you're demeaning. This is Me!

That argument is probably the single worst argument you could make for anything, and to see it used straight is laughable.

PS: I happen to like some bling in my OS thank you very much, and if you think that complaining about it somehow makes you a better person you can piss off.

http://www.searchviews.com/wp-content/themes/clean-copy-full-3-column-1/images/bling.jpg

ClockWork
13th June 2009, 05:40 PM
Yet I lack any personal identity with the machine, thus I feel nothing.

I don't "think" I've accused anyone of anything.

But if any of you feel I have, then I sincerely apologize.

Cheers,

seedub

dolbinau
13th June 2009, 05:52 PM
Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That goes for you, me, tcn33 and everyone else on the planet.

I don't get it, how does this explain what he considers you? ("oppositional character") Confirmation bias would be e.g. searching for answers in google that confirm rather than deny what you are trying to find out..

NeoRicen
13th June 2009, 06:03 PM
I don't get it, how does this explain what he considers you? ("oppositional character") Confirmation bias would be e.g. searching for answers in google that confirm rather than deny what you are trying to find out..
This definition is closer to what I was getting at:

Confirmation bias refers to a type of selective thinking whereby one tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs, and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs. For example, if you believe that during a full moon there is an increase in admissions to the emergency room where you work, you will take notice of admissions during a full moon, but be inattentive to the moon when admissions occur during other nights of the month. A tendency to do this over time unjustifiably strengthens your belief in the relationship between the full moon and accidents and other lunar effects.
The point being that noticing some of a persons posts are combative (I don't deny I do that often) then you will form an opinion of someone that they are combative and subsequently ignore/forget any posts that person makes that don't fit that opinion. Completely subconsciously of course.

dolbinau
13th June 2009, 06:17 PM
I see. Yes that makes sense now :P.

led-zep
13th June 2009, 08:21 PM
wether or not apples build quality has decreased over the years, only being a mac user since around 2006, im not so sure, what i can agree with is leopard does crash more often than say tiger did for ME. tiger was generally free of any crashes (that i remember) and leopard has had one or two, now i dont mean kernel panics etc just the odd, iphoto/garageband beachball and forcequit, itunes forcequit and safari/firefox forcequits..mainly a lot of app crashes for me.

i think the build quality of unibody will make apple great again in some existing users eyes, most new to mac, like i was, are amazed by their designs and the new mac range is sensational in comparision to my cousins horrible plasticy toshiba notebook. in saying that the quality of white macbooks is shoddy as mine, which my sister users, is all cracked and well black lol. but it runs, not fast obviously as a c2d early 07 machine with 1.8ghz and 2gb ram, it runs just enough for her to do uni work on.

end of the day i think apple are in the best position, they have these amazing mac products that look and feel out of this world, and a phone that looks great, they can only improve imo.

led-zep
13th June 2009, 09:01 PM
To add to that, I have this feeling that it is the older or longtime mac user who feels this way, build quality or the intel switch etc. It's almost as if apple owes you something? At least that's the impression I'm getting. For example, the other week before wwdc was in apple store George St and over heard an older gentleman who was a longtime mac user go off at an specialist about one to one and how he couldn't beleive that noone was trained in one specific pro app (don't rememer it but was a DVD based app or something, by motion or colour or shake) and was shouting a the poor specialist "apples just a mobile phone company now".

And in hearing this I just thought how in earth is every employee meant to know every app and software apple makes let alone train you in it? Get a life. Seriously I this k these kinds of mac users feel the company owes them something which is ridiculous. The make great machines, innovate and have awesome stores which you can do what you like and use their products for free for as long as you like.

Apple owes no one anything.

dolbinau
13th June 2009, 09:29 PM
Why shouldn't Apple owe long-time users consist quality?

I'm not necessarily saying that Brain's or anyone else's claims are true, but if they were then yes I don't think it's unreasonable for them to complain that the quality of Apple's products have decreased..

iCameron
13th June 2009, 10:07 PM
Im going to add my point! (Read it if you want!)

I agree with Brains and ClockWork on this one...

- OSX 10.5 is quite bloated and less stable.. but it just depends where you stand on features vs. stability. It's a two way street.
- Manufacture quality has gone down, (This isn't just Apple but everyone, trying to pinch extra dollars. Which for Apple shouldnt really be an issue because i think their still loaded with cash.)
- My iBook G4 is built much better then my new MacBook Pro.
- "why does it take 2 GB of code-space and 4 GHz of computing power to do what you used to be able to do with 300 MB of code-space and 300 MHz of grunt?" - This continually annoys me! Why does it now take more processing power to do things that we did with very little processing power a few years ago... For example loading mail requires 40% of both my CPU's. that's 1GHz!... I had a 500MHz processor that loaded it just as fast a few years ago with less CPU. It seems that as processors get more and more powerful, basic applications use more then they need to.

Interesting story... When Bill Gates was leading the charge at microsoft, he encouraged his engineers and programmers to cut corners to release software quicker. Why? His reasoning was... the amount of time that it takes to make the code faster, is wasteful as by the time we release it a faster processor would have already been launched.

In other notes

- That wikipedia article about bias is completely true, we are all effected by it.
- Intel chips were needed, Apple had no other option and i say it's gone down pretty well.

dolbinau
13th June 2009, 10:43 PM
Can you elaborate on how your iBook G4 is 'better built' than your new MBP?

Brains
14th June 2009, 02:49 AM
Just out of interest, do you have a problem with Apple's crap shovelled from Irish peasants in their manufacturing facilities in Cork, put in boxes and sold as American technology?

Considering they don't actually make anything there -- they just assemble bits shipped in from Foxconn in China and a few stray bits from Central Europe -- there's not really much difference. The only boxed-goods to come out of Cork these days are XServes, and like their behemothic brethren the Mac Pro (another Foxconn construction) they are actually fairly well built.


Now that is a great comeback! Love it. (And for those of you who don't get Brains' comment - I'm not being sarcastic)

For the curious and/or uninitiated, go read "Thief Of Time" by Terry Pratchett.


I guess my response to your comment is this - the number of CPU fails that I've seen has never been lower. Logic boards come and go, my G5 iMac of old had the capacitor issue. But mostly these days I hear about component issues rather than actual build quality.

I have worked for the largest PC maker for schools in Europe and I have also worked for Sun Microsystems. Obviously Sun Micro build (or at least, did build) to a different world. Apple is in between, but more towards the Sun end because their design forces it.

To a certain extent, yes. Put a white MacBook side by side with, say, a similarly-spec'd Arsus or a Compcraq C790 and there's definitely more meat on Apple's bones, even though all three machines roll off exactly the same production lines. Because the three machines share an almost identical heritage, all three machines have -- compared to five and ten years ago -- a high rate of problems. Internally, they're all built with kapton tape and cheap glue, the only thing that stops the MacBook from being an unmitigated disaster like its two step-brothers is it has a thicker case.

It wasn't that long ago that the name Apple was synonymous with excellence in construction, everything was well designed in and out, every panel fitted snugly, and technicians may have cussed at the amount of screws used to hold everything together, but you were buying something that was the equivalent of a good German-built sedan or a B&O stereo. Built to last. Apple is now no different to just about every other manufacturer of electronics and purposely doesn't care about shitty builds because they want you to replace your machine outright every 18 months. I find it rather hypocritical that Apple are making much wind about being greener when their Chinese manufacturing uses more imported oil per machine than ever before, makes the environment around Shenzen virtually unlivable, and is generating more non-degradable landfill the world over than they ever have in the past.

Looking at the industry over the almost three decades I've been in it, the last five years have been disgraceful, and I'm not angry at just Apple, it's almost everyone. If I want to buy a laptop today that has the same forethought and care in construction that Apple enjoyed a decade ago, I'd be spending $10,000 on a Toughbook, because pretty much everything else comes out of the Shenzen shitpits.

Most people here have been Maccing it for two to four years, not even bothering to contemplate Apple hardware if you can't run Windows on it and play games -- hardware quality and OS capability isn't all that different today than it was three years ago. Things look a bit different to those who climbed on the pre-OSX Apple truck when PowerPC was an established alternative, commandlines were for zombie-skinned pimpled nerds in closets and Windows wasn't that important (and for the odd banking app, there was VirtualPC). Things today look very different if you've been in the IT biz as long as I have. It all boils down to how wide your perspective is :)

Lutze
14th June 2009, 10:31 AM
I think that the white Macbook is being pushed into a corner, it won't surprise me when the price of it drops like a stone as it's going to become the very cheap way for students to get into the Apple computing world.

It's obvious that the Unibody Macbooks are the way forward - it saves the company more money than it costs them. The only thing to worry about is how long it's going to take the other manufacturers to catch up. Though they have not even caught up with the old Ti Powerbook, so if that's an indication of the speed that they move at Apple will be able to cut the price to customers as the failure rate reduces and still keep it's profit margins healthy.

cejay
14th June 2009, 05:54 PM
Brains, I hear and understand you, but change is inevitable and not always for the worse.

Things have changed so much and when you consider what you get for your money, most of it has been for the better. I would dearly love to have my Unibody Mac built by a fully protected worker in the US, but I suspect I would simply be unable to afford it. And in a World that is driven by endless growth, to have a company making beautiful products that no-one can afford would be the death of that organisation.

I worked for hp for the last 20yrs and it was both inspiring and sad to see the changes across that company. Sad that so much is now built down to the lowest price, but inspiring to see what you can get for the money. Incidentally, the change has been occurring for over 20yrs, with the changes becoming more pronounced recently. I was working on very poorly constructed US built products in the early 90's. They were no different to the Chinese products, but more expensive! I was also encouraged to do board swaps on $250k T&M products in 1988 because they were impossible to component repair and I was seeing 'Pizza' boxes coming out of the Appollo product line with no screws and just foam padding in the very early 90's. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Geoff3DMN
14th June 2009, 06:13 PM
Things today look very different if you've been in the IT biz as long as I have. It all boils down to how wide your perspective is :)

I'm at least as old as you are Brains, I trained on a DEC PDP 11/45!

It isn't only Apple quality that's dropped over that intervening 30 years it's also PC quality and rebuildability and long life.

Take the original IBM PC, that thing was built like a tank (I should know we had one). By comparison modern computers are light, flimsy and throw away.

But you're blaming Apple for market changes that are much wider than the niche that is Apple's alone.

And you're still ignoring the new unibody machines which (unlike the very ordinary white macbook) represent a significant step upwards in construction quality.

Rather than saying Apple aren't building quality machines I'd point to the new unibody MacBook Pro's and ask where (short of a Tough Book) you could buy a better built machine?

chip
14th June 2009, 08:55 PM
Take the original IBM PC, that thing was built like a tank (I should know we had one). By comparison modern computers are light, flimsy and throw away.


That's an interesting consideration. Modern desktop/portable personal computers are the result of 25 years' value engineering. The original IBM PC cost something like $4000 in 1981 dollars, which is over $12000 in 2008 dollars (using the RBA's inflation calculator). I'm certainly not going to complain about the increasing affordability of computers, and although my own personal experience only goes back a decade, I suspect the % rate of failures hasn't varied greatly since then.

iMic
15th June 2009, 03:43 AM
I'm actually interested to hear the claims that PowerPC's were more well built than the Intels. I suppose that completely contradicts my experiences because:

- iMac G3 suffered from brittle plastic and heat issues
- eMac G4 had the IVAD cable raster shift issue.
- iBook G4 suffered from GPU Solder Delamination
- Second iBook G4 suffered from solder cracks in the logic board
- PowerBook G4 has a flaky video chip
- Power Mac G4 Yikes was flaky, period. (To be fair, it was just living up to its name.)
- ALL of the above laptops had poorly manufactured AC adapters. Three melted.

...and yet...

- Intel iMac. Rock Solid.
- MacBook Pro C2D (NOT mine, work machine). Rock Solid. At the most, prone to dents, not an issue if you don't use it as a football.

I still have yet to buy a home and personal laptop with an Intel processor. I think Apple's new Unibody designs, coupled with Snow Leopard, will give them a great all-round package that works well, looks great, reliable and is dependable day in, day out. I know what my next computer purchase will be though, that's for sure.

Just for the record I've stripped down all of the machines listed above to the bare internals, then reassembled each, so I have a feel for what's beyond the pretty face, so to speak. The Intels are, if anything, a little nicer inside than their PowerPC brethren, but perhaps a little less interesting (some who remember the G3's fold-down logic board door design may consider the Mac Pro pretty basic in contrast, for example).

I think the failure rates on the Intel based Mac range have actually fallen in the last couple of years after a very shaky start, particularly in the notebook space with battery issues and defective Magsafe connectors.

ClockWork
15th June 2009, 06:47 AM
I feel the one major contributing factor in the construction of "any" product all boils down to a factory line assembly problem.

Blundstone boots (http://www.blundstone.com/product_safety.cgi) were superiorly crafted in Tassy since 1870 - I have a pair here that are 15 years old and I still wear em!!
But Blundstone have now moved all crafting of the boot to China... and they will never be as long lasting again...
(I bought 5 new pairs of the Tasmanian crafted boot, just before the Australian made line ended.)

There's nothing complicated about the problem. If something is assembled "faster", (by human beings) it is more prone to failure.

I often go on about MacPower / Stardom External Drives here in the forums, often to the annoyance of others, yet one major contributing factor to their superior construction is not just their design, but where and how they were made.

Maxtor Extenals and WD MyBook Pros come into existence because... Western Digital, by example, decides they want... 20 million MyBook Enclosures, so they turn to China (and it's vast human work force) and they say, "We want 20 million WD MyBook Enclosures, for which we will pay you X million dollars, if you can churn them out in one month."

Mass assembly on this scale is what essentially leads to many lemons.

macrich
15th June 2009, 06:56 AM
What I hear is the "I'm afraid of change" views.
There's nothing to be scared of. Life is for the most part getting easier for us, we are becoming more productive with our time.
Case in point, would you rather a VCR or a DVD? I know which one I would prefer.
Would you rather a cassette or a CD?
Would you rather Windows 3.11 or windows XP?
Would you rather OS 3 or OS X?
Computers are only made more powerful and with larger memory and hard drive space to run the consumerist society that we all live in. If nothing failed then nothing would ever be upgraded. At the same time, it's easier to do the things I do now, than if I tried to do them using technology from c.1984. As much as I love the 80's, (for nostalgia only), it's wasn't our brightest moment on fashion, technology or music.

For the record, my white macbook has no cracks, only been in for warranty once (airport card). My 2007 iMac has been replaced under warranty (failed power supply resulting in an electric shock for me). My other 2008 iMac has been perfect from the day I bought it. My ATV has been replaced once (don't know what went wrong). My iphone is my best friend, it tells me everything I need to know, wherever I need it.

I miss my commodore64 and my atari, but I wouldn't trade what I have now for either of them in a pink fit.

I love leopard, and I will love SL. But then that's just my personal preference.

ClockWork
15th June 2009, 07:14 AM
I hear ya dood.

I think the fear of change that I have is that everyone is going to wind up becoming a consumerist whore ... including me, on the Brave New World basis that it is better to "end" than to "mend".

No choice.

macrich
15th June 2009, 07:18 AM
I think the problem CW is that, I for one hate being used by big corps. BETAMAX, MiniDisc, HDDVD. It's always the same, we all fall for the crap of newer is better as some point in time, and the bulk of us fall for it over and over again (me included). I'm a fence sitter in this world. While I despise the consumerist system, I admire it for giving us everything we have today.

It's a no win debate really.

morn
15th June 2009, 10:32 AM
Things have changed so much and when you consider what you get for your money, most of it has been for the better. I would dearly love to have my Unibody Mac built by a fully protected worker in the US, but I suspect I would simply be unable to afford it. And in a World that is driven by endless growth, to have a company making beautiful products that no-one can afford would be the death of that organisation.


The Chinese need the jobs more than Americans do (probably just robots that would get the jobs in the US anyway too), China is a poorer country. You should be happy that China is drawing in manufacturing from around the world, it's helping a lot of people have a better life in a poorer country.
Capitalism is actually working to reduce poverty and enrich a poor country here, why are you against it?


Internally, they're all built with kapton tape and cheap glue, the only thing that stops the MacBook from being an unmitigated disaster like its two step-brothers is it has a thicker case.


This is far less true for the Unibodies, apple actually bothered to do a good job designing it's internals because they seem to have just clued onto the fact that people actually look inside the unit!


It wasn't that long ago that the name Apple was synonymous with excellence in construction, everything was well designed in and out, every panel fitted snugly, and technicians may have cussed at the amount of screws used to hold everything together, but you were buying something that was the equivalent of a good German-built sedan or a B&O stereo. Built to last.

Some what true for the white plastic macbook. But the Unibodies are a return to quality construction.


I find it rather hypocritical that Apple are making much wind about being greener when their Chinese manufacturing uses more imported oil per machine than ever before, makes the environment around Shenzen virtually unlivable, and is generating more non-degradable landfill the world over than they ever have in the past.


Apple is not the government of China, they don't manage the countries power generation or factory operation. Apple has done their most to reduce packaging sizes to reduce oil use in transportation. Apple is doing the most they can without completely sacrificing the company by having uncompetitive manufacturing costs, the reality of the industry today is that you produce in China because no other country has the same quality of labour for such a low price. Apple must work within the realities of the industry.


Ohh, and speaking of change, see my signature. ;) Progress is always at a price.

thorevenge
15th June 2009, 01:10 PM
There was problems with some small batches of older logic boards etc from the PowerPC days but I look at it from this PoV.

The OS was more stable and updates didn't kill the system as often or as badly.

Refurbished parts and replacement parts from PowerPC machines were (I say were because the odds of finding those now are slim and none because AppleCare has expired) in great condition. The number of times I sent parts back because dies had been scratched or there was still glue and kapton on them etc for Intel boards is shocking.

Construction wise the Intel machines are a step forward in terms of serviceability and backwards in terms of ruggedness. They are very delicate compared to the PPC machines. The iBook/Macbook relationship is very clear with this.

Overall there is little I can do. Apple have chosen their way forward but take for instance the problem I am dealing with now concerning a possibly faulty Airport card. I don't know if its the card or the software. It detects the network and other networks fine. It just times out trying to authenticate with the WPA password every single time. I think its Intel related, given in 10.4 it was flaky but under 10.5 its got no hope :(

More rebuilds - sigh.

iMic
16th June 2009, 03:10 AM
Add to my post above. I just had 2 AC adapters- a PowerBook G4 65w and an iBook G4 45w go "pop" and release the magic smoke. God damnit.

MacEmpathy
16th June 2009, 11:47 AM
I was just thinking about this today, kind of.

We know that SL will be a $29 USD upgrade for 10.5 users, but $169 in the SL/iLife pack for 10.4 users. How exactly are Apple going to police this? Either a) they don't, in the same way they've never policed single vs family pack, or b) activation a la Windows.

If it turns out to be b), the tubes will be chock full of "Goddamn Apple are just like Microsoft!!!!!" etc.

Actually, the upgrade for all Leopard users who purchased a mac after June 8th only have to pay $9 US. Just an observation.
The thing that I want most in Snow Leopard is SLI.

macaholic
16th June 2009, 11:51 AM
Add to my post above. I just had 2 AC adapters- a PowerBook G4 65w and an iBook G4 45w go "pop" and release the magic smoke. God damnit.

Breathe in, breathe out....

Cap vapour is nice :)