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benr
3rd May 2009, 06:20 PM
hey everyone
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3394/3496659586_7752320de9.jpg?v=0
i wanted to get your thought on the Palm Pre, Palm has announced a GSM model for outside the US and we should have it here by the end 2009
i am looking forward to this release now that we have seen what iPhone 3.0 has to offer
i think the multitasking (cards) and synergy is great what are your thoughts
personally although i love Apple products but i think this will be MY iPhone killer
i think synergy is great and love the cards system

will you buy one
what do you like or dislike about Palm Pre/WebOS

bartron
3rd May 2009, 06:55 PM
Palm is the Amiga of the handheld world.

The OS is fine and the hardware is perfectly capable but Palm just doesn't have it at the moment. 10 years ago I would swear Palm would rule the world (20 years ago I thought the same of Commodore) but the right decisions weren't made and now it jsut feels like they are playing catchup rather than innovating like they used to.

dolbinau
3rd May 2009, 07:16 PM
The only thing I really want is multi-tasking.

NeoRicen
3rd May 2009, 08:20 PM
I think it looks great, but it's just not right for me, for these reasons:

Keyboard. I don't want a physical keyboard. It's not something I don't need but will accept, it's something I view the lack of as a positive. That said, that's just me, probably a major plus for others. This is all assuming that if it has a touchscreen that it's capacitive. And I don't want moving aprts on a damn phone.

Screen. I think the iPhone's screen is the perfect size, 3.1" is a tad too small.

Storage. I want at least 16GB.

Apps. The Pre just doesn't have the app ecosystem the Pre iPhone does. Yet.

Style. The Pre interface is very nice, but I still much prefer the iPhone UI. Also, the industrial design of the iPhone is much nicer, and the next iPhone will probably be even nicer.

iTunes. I use my iPhone as an iPod more than I use it as a phone. The syncing with the iTunes library, in particular grabbing the latest podcasts that downloaded overnight, is one of the main reasons I love my iPhone.

The last one is the biggest reason. When Jobs announced the Phone he called it a Phone, and Internet Communications Device and an iPod. The Pre has 2 of the 3 and does them well, but it needs all 3 for me to consider it (or at least some revolutionary alternative, which it doesn't have).

klif
3rd May 2009, 09:46 PM
I will wait till I can play with one "hands on", but I am not uncomfortable with the notion that my iPhone 3G once out of contract on July 11th, 2009 maybe being replaced...

I'm running OS 3.0 beta 4 now and while it adds lots of stuff that should have been there for ages it doesn't evolve the iPhone 3G any further imho.

marc
3rd May 2009, 10:31 PM
I think the Pre will do well if Palm can keep the passion up and build a good app ecosystem. I definitely see webOS as a better platform than Win Mobile and maybe better than Blackberry's OS.

It looks likely that it'll be webOS, Android and Blackberry will be fighting for second place behind the iPhone. Doubt anyone will catch the iPhone for some time.

NeoRicen
3rd May 2009, 10:37 PM
Keep in mind there is no GSM version of the Pre yet, and it may be a very long time before it comes to Australia. There also won't be the option to import because it just won't work at all, unlike the iPhone when it launched.

choy
4th May 2009, 12:06 AM
I like the phone but if Palm don't bother to release a GSM version simultaneous with their hobbled Sprint version, they won't last the year. They need plenty of cash in their coffers by the end of the year if they are to survive as they are bleeding money badly right now, they are only surviving because elevation partners invested money in the company.

THey'd better release a GSM version by June!

desplesda
4th May 2009, 11:05 AM
I'm fascinated by the card metaphor for apps. I wonder what we'd see if we combined that with large, multi-touch screens. There's a research project in there, somewhere.

ckeener
5th May 2009, 05:29 AM
I love this phone based on all of the reviews, web seminars and articles that i have been exposed to so far. I cannot wait to get my hands on it.

lavo
5th May 2009, 03:18 PM
Interesting to note that the Blackberry Curve 8900 outsold the iPhone in the last quarter (here (http://www.news.com.au/technology/story/0,25642,25431180-5014239,00.html)). Obviously a lot of that is due to the offer that was around for the Blackberry, and maybe in some way due to a lack of hardware refresh from Apple.

Be aware that WebOS is resolution independent (is iPhone OS 3.0 that way?), which opens the door to a number of models of phones, and other devices. Just handy netbooks have taken off, seeing as the Foleo was cancelled.....

BTW, Precentral (http://www.precentral.net/pre-landing-down-under-august) have linked to Smarthouse (draw your own conclusions here) that the Pre will be available with Telstra for around $299 with on contract/ $899 off contract, in August.

One last thing, on the developer stuff, don't forget that WebOS apps are based on HTML/CSS/Javascript. There are a bucketload more programmers of those languages than there are Cocoa programmers. Jury is out for me, but what apps have been shown by Palm are definitely on par with decent iPhone apps.

I'm interested in one :-)

benr
5th May 2009, 04:05 PM
thanks lavo for the link i will be lining up at a telstra store in August early on the morning of the launch as i did for the iPhone 3G back in July is this is rumor is true

pengu
5th May 2009, 04:10 PM
So, I have a question for those with more knowledge than myself.

Why is it that The likes of Nokia, Google and Palm are all using WebKit for their mobile browser? I don't mean this in a bad way, I think it's great, it makes things easier for me (web dev).

But whats the business reason for it? A more open License? (presumably webkit is the Apple OSS license but gecko is gpl?) Easier to integrate? Lighter footprint?

NeoRicen
5th May 2009, 06:22 PM
But whats the business reason for it? A more open License? (presumably webkit is the Apple OSS license but gecko is gpl?) Easier to integrate? Lighter footprint?
It's open source, and blazing fast, also the most standards compliant engine, as far as I'm aware. Kind of a no-brainer.

desplesda
8th May 2009, 01:34 PM
That, and the nearest competition at the same price is Gecko, which is slow and bulky.

entropy
8th May 2009, 01:50 PM
I will wait for reports on the impact the Pre multitask setup has on battery life before I get too excited.

Apart from that, I wonder when would be the optimum time for Apple to do arescue buyout, before or after the Pre doesn't save Palm. After all, better Apple than MS getting hold of Palm's patents.

banjo
8th May 2009, 02:17 PM
Some form of multi-tasking would be great, but I don't get why you would need to have all of your apps running in the background. Is the eye-candy of seeing your contact list scroll while in card view worth the battery or performance degradation? Do you really need to have the calculator in memory when you're not using it?

On the plus side, I think it's impressive the way they've used the area under the screen as a touch-sensitive panel to perform OS functions (app switching, for example).

dolbinau
8th May 2009, 03:11 PM
For me multi tasking means IM+Last.fm scrobbling.

Although I suppose push notifications will fix the first. Jailbreaking did fix the second but I went back :P.

Paris
9th May 2009, 06:50 PM
I will definitely buy one, but I'm a die-hard supporter of Palm from wayback.

I'm not sure it will be an iPhone killer unless/until the variety and quality of applications available for it matches the iPhone. If the SDK is solid and capable, then that will happen at some point.

desplesda
10th May 2009, 12:54 PM
If the SDK is as simple as they claim - HTML5 and Javascript - then I'm positive we'll start seeing all kinds of stuff happen, and at a much faster pace than the Cocoa-based iPhone.

pengu
10th May 2009, 01:37 PM
If the SDK is as simple as they claim - HTML5 and Javascript - then I'm positive we'll start seeing all kinds of stuff happen, and at a much faster pace than the Cocoa-based iPhone.

well it's using WebKit, so a lot is possible (e.g. the web inspector in Safari is built using html)

marc
10th May 2009, 02:01 PM
Be aware that WebOS is resolution independent (is iPhone OS 3.0 that way?), which opens the door to a number of models of phones, and other devices.
Some notes on that comment:

- Nup, the iPhone's OS isn't resolution independent as it stands right now (Mac OS X is in parts though).

- Even though webOS might be considered resolution independent (I assume they're using similar viewport mechanisms like Safari/Webkit on the iPhone), that doesn't mean it'll instantly be able to scale to any size or shape.

- Bitmap images are still the best way to present most buttons and UI elements on any phone and generally on any computer platform (especially CPU/RAM restricted ones), so resolution independence isn't as attractive as it sounds (scaling UI based on images = will look worse than it could).

- Being resolution independent doesn't really help too much with aspect ratio changes.

- Where does Palm say that webOS is resolution independent? (Not saying they haven't, just saying I can't find it.)

So although it might sound attractive at face value, resolution independent UIs on phones probably isn't a good idea at the moment, if ever. Andoid has a similar issue. I haven't designed UI for the Pre or Android yet, but it seems like it'd be very difficult to design pixel accurate mocks that appear as such on all devices. If you were targeting just the Pre, you should be able to get great results though.

pengu
10th May 2009, 02:10 PM
Images are still the best way to present buttons and UI elements on any phone and generally on any computer platform

As a web dev, I respectfully disagree, especially when you consider the CSS enhancements in Safari (i.e. gradient backgrounds etc).

Even without Safari's extras, it's not particularly hard to make scalable UI elements with a properly built glyph image and the YUI "rounded buttons" method. They are also have a lot lighter footprint (a single image file for backgrounds if needed, the rest is just markup and CSS, and maybe JS - not one image per button).

Quamen
10th May 2009, 03:19 PM
As a web dev, I respectfully disagree, especially when you consider the CSS enhancements in Safari (i.e. gradient backgrounds etc).

Even without Safari's extras, it's not particularly hard to make scalable UI elements with a properly built glyph image and the YUI "rounded buttons" method. They are also have a lot lighter footprint (a single image file for backgrounds if needed, the rest is just markup and CSS, and maybe JS - not one image per button).

It's much easier (computationally) to display an image than it is to parse html/css/js files to get the same result. It's the reason why a webpage loading over wifi on the iPhone still takes a lot longer than on your laptop.

This is why images are still better on mobile devices.

Chief911
10th May 2009, 03:52 PM
I'm running OS 3.0 beta 4 now and while it adds lots of stuff that should have been there for ages it doesn't evolve the iPhone 3G any further imho.

How has it not got better, the only thing which it cant change obviously is the camera but even so they seem to be making better images come out of a 3G with 3.0 than 2.2.1 All other areas that people would winge about like MMS etc are comming to 3.0 and i guess there are a few headline grabers that we dont know about yet either...

marc
10th May 2009, 05:02 PM
As a web dev, I respectfully disagree, especially when you consider the CSS enhancements in Safari (i.e. gradient backgrounds etc).
Actually, I agree with you in some cases that using methods like that can be great. And I'd say the Pre's implementation of Webkit should include loads of CSS3.0 goodness, allowing some neat tricks. However, there's even better methods available to you in Cocoa/iPhone SDK programming. Anything you think you can do with CSS, you can do x10 with Cocoa (gradients, rounded corners, borders, vector shapes etc).

Remember that the images are generally stored locally on the device, so network speed isn't an issue. Also remember that if something needs to be drawn (ie. using CSS or Cocoa for borders and rounded corners), that it has to be rendered to an image in a buffer first. So CSS methods will probably take up more RAM and be slower than images alone, especially if you're using a combination of a few different CSS features.

So while resolution independence sounds great ("build once for all screen resolutions" etc), it's rarely actually what you want or what will work. The reality isn't that you're building for an infinite number of screen resolutions or sizes, but you're building for 1 or 2 screen resolutions or sizes. In the iPhone's case, it's one. Brilliant. Palm would do well to keep it to one screen resolution for as long as they possibly can.

kevinnugent
6th June 2009, 08:48 PM
Picking nits: why I’m skipping the Palm Pre (http://www.jeffkirvin.net/2009/06/picking-nits-why-im-skipping-the-palm-pre/)

There's a LOT of reason's not to buy this puppy. Let's see what the actual feedback is like from new owners.

dolbinau
6th June 2009, 10:04 PM
I think that list is stupid, and to conclude the experience will be more like Windows Mobile is also stupid, since many of the features are hardware related which has nothing to do with Windows, and the lack of certain software features does not mean "Windows mobile" either. I don't know about the published specs, but I really doubt the battery life of the Pre could be much worse (in practice at least) than the iPhone's.

Complaining about "not able to use batteries" from other Palm models? wtff iPhone can't replace batteries at all, again, it seems like a stupid argument. (That it's more like Windows Mobile than iPhone)

Obviously it isn't perfect, but if he thinks that because YouTube links don't open the YouTube App means it won't 'save palm' then I think he is mistaken..

decryption
6th June 2009, 11:12 PM
I think this list by the guy who made Tumblr and Instpaper accurately describes my stance on the Palm Pre: Marco.org - I want the Pre to succeed, but I don't want one. (http://www.marco.org/118076920)

The Pre, makes Apple better. Wether it's motivation by spite, or motivation to be the best, either way, it pushes Apple forward and makes sure they stay ahead of the curve.

That said, who else reckons the Pre box is way too much like the iPhone?

http://heyinternet.com/imgdump/ebay-palm-pres.jpg-20090606-231209.jpg

Bogus Jimmy
7th June 2009, 08:02 AM
Palm have been putting their stuff in iPhone knockoff boxes since the Treo Pro (the box was the only part of the product that had any resemblance to the iPhone since it ran Windows Mobile and was a candybar with a QWERTY kb.)

http://home.exetel.com.au/fw_bogusjimmy/treopro.jpg

NeoRicen
7th June 2009, 04:59 PM
but I really doubt the battery life of the Pre could be much worse (in practice at least) than the iPhone's.
Why? The presence of background apps can easily explain it.

dolbinau
7th June 2009, 05:20 PM
Or so Apple would like you to believe :P.

Palm Pre review, part 3: Data speeds, backup, battery, Bluetooth, pricing, wrap-up (http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/03/palm-pre-review-part-3-data-speeds-backup-battery-bluetooth/)

The description of battery life and having to charge every day is exactly the experience I have with my iPhone..

NeoRicen
7th June 2009, 05:22 PM
Or so Apple would like you to believe :P.

Palm Pre review, part 3: Data speeds, backup, battery, Bluetooth, pricing, wrap-up (http://www.engadget.com/2009/06/03/palm-pre-review-part-3-data-speeds-backup-battery-bluetooth/)

The description of battery life and having to charge every day is exactly the experience I have with my iPhone..
Well I've read plenty of reviews that say otherwise... so... yeah.

Tassiecelt
7th June 2009, 05:48 PM
I've been a Palm user from way back and still own a Treo, but now I have an iphone - who needs anything else?

mab
7th June 2009, 07:24 PM
Palm Pre Browser Demo and Showdown

dewMwv4eQIk

NeoRicen
7th June 2009, 07:32 PM
Palm Pre Browser Demo and Showdown

dewMwv4eQIk
Impressive, although once the iPhone gets an equivalent processor I'd expect it to do just as well as the Pre, if not, better.

marc
8th June 2009, 01:12 PM
A thought: the webOS should be great for writing small productivity apps, ok for writing medium sized productivity apps, and quite poor at writing action games.

This is an area that the iPhone will continue to dominate.


Impressive, although once the iPhone gets an equivalent processor I'd expect it to do just as well as the Pre, if not, better.
Agreed. I think the new iPhone will be quicker. I guess we'll know very soon.

I can't wait to use a Pre in person.

chaosboi
8th June 2009, 01:40 PM
I thought Apple had a patent on the pinch to zoom?

NeoRicen
8th June 2009, 01:45 PM
I thought Apple had a patent on the pinch to zoom?
They say they do (I'm no patent expert), but they haven't taken any legal action yet, probably because it would be fruitless.

Mecha
8th June 2009, 01:48 PM
Competition is great and the Pre (unlike the Blackberry) I feel is a direct competitor.

But lets wait to see whats new from Apple in 12 hours. It's a little unfair to compare a 12 month old phone to a new one.

morn
8th June 2009, 03:18 PM
CSS and JavaScript...
Ok, so the Palm Pre's apps are basically going to be little more capable than dashboard widgets.
Multitasking and background apps are great. But... these won't really be apps in the sense of what we're used to on the iPhone.

NeoRicen
8th June 2009, 04:21 PM
CSS and JavaScript...
Ok, so the Palm Pre's apps are basically going to be little more capable than dashboard widgets.
Multitasking and background apps are great. But... these won't really be apps in the sense of what we're used to on the iPhone.
To be fair, the vast majority of apps I have download on my iPhone, apart from games would be possible as widgets. Unluckily for Palm however, games have been a huge part of the popularity of the iPhone and iPod touch.

morn
8th June 2009, 05:22 PM
It is true that most iPhone apps could work as a dashboard widget.
But don't think stuff like Google Earth, Skype or VNC can.

NeoRicen
8th June 2009, 05:25 PM
It is true that most iPhone apps could work as a dashboard widget.
But don't think stuff like Google Earth, Skype or VNC can.
SKype could, the Pre apps are more functional than widgets since they can tap into hardware and OS APIs that web pages and widgets can't.

morn
8th June 2009, 05:33 PM
Well so do widgets kind of... can tap into more functions than a web page at least.

pengu
8th June 2009, 05:57 PM
You'd be surprised what WebKit can do.

morn
8th June 2009, 06:02 PM
Yeah, I'm sure they could call an audio API to play a file.
Skype has their own audio codec... I don't see that running on javascript.

marc
8th June 2009, 06:16 PM
Fair call about using custom codecs etc. Wouldn't be easy to do low level things.

For 80% of apps, pengu's probably right... WebKit is very capable and it's Javascript optimisation is pretty good.

I think in the long run it might hurt Palm a little though. iPhone apps are starting to hit the wall of what's possible on the hardware with Obj-c. When you're on such a limited device, you need all the resources you can get.

Still, the Pre looks brilliant.