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xfodder
6th June 2005, 02:07 PM
hey guys, i know garageband is a great app, but as I'm learning more about digital recording ive found out that it only supports 44100/16bit recording, so i was wondering if there are any cheap app's that supports up-to 96000/24bit recording ? it doesn't have to support apple's loops and instruments but it would be a plus if it did, i will mainly be recording guitars and vocals.

i know apple makes Logic, so i was wondering (since i cant afford Logic Pro) does Logic Express support 9600/24bit recording ?

any help is appreciated :D

marc
6th June 2005, 03:10 PM
Logic Express does support 24-bit/96kHz. I use Logic heaps and love it.

I'm not sure what the main differences are between Express and Pro, I assume plugins and track count would be the main ones.

Why do you want 96khz recording?

marc
6th June 2005, 03:11 PM
FYI:
http://www.apple.com/logicexpress/specs.html

Squozen
6th June 2005, 03:47 PM
From what I've read, the bit depth is a more important factor than the sample rate. 44.1k/24-bit works very well for mixing down to CD and doesn't put as much load on your machine as 96kHz will. You also need excellent gear to notice a difference between 44.1k/96k with all other things being equal.

xfodder
6th June 2005, 03:51 PM
well i am not very 'in-tune' with terms and such, but i would have thought that 96 khz would provide better quality ? i know that anything over 48 khz is overkill (cd's are 48 khz right?) garageband kinda feels like a toy rather than a application, i dunno it could just be me.

Rayd
6th June 2005, 03:59 PM
if you want DJing stuff.... Traktor 2.6.2 is the money! :D

wickeddigital
6th June 2005, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by xfodder@Jun 6 2005, 03:51 PM
well i am not very 'in-tune' with terms and such, but i would have thought that 96 khz would provide better quality ? i know that anything over 48 khz is overkill (cd's are 48 khz right?) garageband kinda feels like a toy rather than a application, i dunno it could just be me.
No CD's are 44k, 16 bit. As for Garageband being a toy? That is wrong, it is a commonly missunderstood application which makes what is essentially a complex procedure, simple for the masses. There is a lot of power under the hood of Garageband, it is simply hidden away to make the process of music making simple.

And yes 96kHz is better quality, but what are you listening back on? What are you recording in on? If your in bound and out bound audio gear is not up to scratch then 96k is a waste of time.....

marc
6th June 2005, 04:39 PM
I totally agree wickeddigital. Garageband is quite powerful.

If the final product is CD, then you may be better off sticking to 44.1k for the entire project. Sample rate conversions do very nasty things to audio.

There are some inherent advantages in recording at 96k, but these really only become apparent if you have the right gear (once again, as wickeddigital suggested).

xfodder
9th June 2005, 01:24 AM
thanks for the info guys, marc and wicked you guys were especially helpful, i think ill explore garageband further and learn more about digital recording etc. before trying anything else, i downloaded the trial of logic express and it was a little complicated :)

sorry to bother you but is there a site or something that can help me learn a little more about sample rates etc. ? any help you guys could give me i would greatly appreciate :)

Atomic
9th June 2005, 01:45 AM
This page (http://www.hammersound.net/audiobasics/audiobasics.html) has some useful info.

slobodan
9th June 2005, 02:27 AM
i would rate bitrate far more important than sample rate. if you're mixing down a lot of tracks, you'll need the extra headroom.

uncyherb
9th June 2005, 09:07 AM
Garageband 1 was a good start, but is too limited in regards to how many tracks you can record at once... Garageband 2 (iLife05) is much better.

There are lots of reasons to go up to 96k/24 bit... but only under certain circumstances.

Like do you have a really good set of mics? And what sort of pre-amp? What about your analog to digital convertors? And the room you'll be recording in... is it really soundproofed?

All of these things (and many more) will make much more difference to your sound quality than the difference between 44.1/48/96 kHz or 16/24 bit.

Look at it this way... GIGO (garbage in = garbage out) - perfectly reproduced garbage is still garbage.

For the record, I use Logic (express) a bit, but have had a reasonable amount of experience with Pro-Tools (or 'slow tools by dodgy design' as it used to get called), cubase (urrggh, getting that to run on a B&W G3 was an exercise in frustration!) and have mixed (and trained people to mix) on analog & digital mixing consoles worth from $250 to $200,000.

marc
9th June 2005, 09:09 AM
Great site Atomic (except that it glorifies 44khz/16bit without mention of anything better. We'll that's what I got from skimming through it!).

slobodan :: Bitrate is very important, but it's really a term used for compressed aduio (as in data compressed not dynamically compressed), such as MP3s. Did you mean bit depth? (ie. the 16bit / 24bit part)

xfodder :: Logic Pro is one of the most complicated sound apps around, so I can imagine Logic Express would be similar. It's one of the best though! It really depends on what you plan to do with it.

Quite a lot of the GarageBand plugins were taken directly from Logic Pro when Apple bought Emagic, so that's another reason why GarageBand is pretty damn good.

the_OM
9th June 2005, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by ipod_man@Jun 6 2005, 03:59 PM
if you want DJing stuff.... Traktor 2.6.2 is the money! :D
Perhaps if you want to limit yourself to the bedroom. If you want to DJ using your mac, then Ableton Live 4 is hands down the best app out there for it.

marc
9th June 2005, 09:45 AM
Uncyherb is on the money :) What's the rest of the chain going to be?

saggsy
9th June 2005, 12:08 PM
It all depends on how full on you actually want to get into it, I own a 'Project Studio' worth approx $30,000, and yes that is a lot of money but its still only good enough to record sweet sounding demo's, for pro stuff I'll always go into a proper studio to track and mix. Besides $30,000 is what some average bands in Aus pay to get an album recorded, mixed and mastered. So what do you think you might expect with even only a couple thousand dollars and only you (no disrespect) to record and mix it? You get what you pay for in the Digital Recording world, come join us you'll love it - and never have a penny in the bank again :(

xfodder
9th June 2005, 01:19 PM
that was a good read thanks atomic :) and thanks for that explanation uncyherb :)

slobodan
10th June 2005, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by marc@Jun 9 2005, 09:09 AM
slobodan :: Bitrate is very important, but it's really a term used for compressed aduio (as in data compressed not dynamically compressed), such as MP3s. Did you mean bit depth? (ie. the 16bit / 24bit part)
Yeah sorry, it was late! honest!

when i did a lot of audio stuff, i settled on 44.1/16 as i would mixdown in the analogue domain so i found it didn't matter a great deal. if you're going to mix internally though, you really need the extra bit depth so you don't lose too much in the mixdown (especially with any live guitars and/or bass). i still hate digital, but i found a hybrid solution a good way to have the flexibility and convenience of digital recording without losing too much detail in the final product.

Squozen
21st June 2005, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by saggsy@Jun 9 2005, 12:08 PM
It all depends on how full on you actually want to get into it, I own a 'Project Studio' worth approx $30,000, and yes that is a lot of money but its still only good enough to record sweet sounding demo's, for pro stuff I'll always go into a proper studio to track and mix. Besides $30,000 is what some average bands in Aus pay to get an album recorded, mixed and mastered. So what do you think you might expect with even only a couple thousand dollars and only you (no disrespect) to record and mix it? You get what you pay for in the Digital Recording world, come join us you'll love it - and never have a penny in the bank again :(
These days the equipment produced is of such a high standard that you don't need to spend over $10k to be able to produce excellent results (Alanis Morrisette's debut album was recorded to ADAT, which sounds dreadful compared to what you can do with a 2002 PowerMac and a MOTU firewire interface).

The real problem with home studios is usually the acoustics. The only benefit I find with going into a studio is taking advantage of their sound-treated rooms and having an unbiased pair of ears to listen to what I'm doing. I did some home recording on a Mackie desk and Tascam 8-track reel-to-reel unit (total cost including outboard compressor/effects, about $4500). The vocals, however, I did at a small project studio, not because they'd sound better (although the room was better sound-proofed than my own) but because I could let somebody else do the engineering and focus on my performance. It's great to have an engineer say 'You nailed that take' instead of listening back to yourself and not trusting your own decisions.

Jimbo
21st June 2005, 06:46 PM
nothing wrong with an adat, they are just... limited.

I've never had any successful experiences with logic or logic express for that matter, even back wehn emaigic owned it, i find it a tad confusing and i never got the demo of express to work! :( pm me if you can help me out... but i digress...

when your output is cd go with 44.1, if you DO go with a higher sample rate than 44.1 (your effects will sound better) make sure its a even multiple of 44.1khz, ie 88.2 is very common, if you don't you run the risk of aliasing distortion when you down sample. 96khz is for mixing down to 48khz (broadcast video) or DVD

and just for the record, 24 bit systems apparantly have a greater dynamic range than the human ear? so those 32 bit floating systems are a bit of a wank!

also watch your disk space when running with 88kz 24bit and more than 8 tracks, you'll notice it.

marc
21st June 2005, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Jimbo@Jun 21 2005, 06:46 PM
and just for the record, 24 bit systems apparantly have a greater dynamic range than the human ear? so those 32 bit floating systems are a bit of a wank!
Not at all. You're forgetting about the extra data required for processing.

Just say you run a sample through a fader.

121 (a sample value) * .9 (the fader multiplier) = 108.9

The ".9" will be truncated if you don't have the extra resolution to hold it. That fader example is only one calculation. If you have multiple effects plugins, complex buss routing or even simple buss routing there will be up to thousands of calculations and thousands of rounding errors.

Most high quality plugins use word lengths of over 24bit. I think Waves are mostly 48bit integer, and most others are 32bit float or 48bit integer. Some are even 64bit (32bit CPUs can do 64bit maths functions).

Logic uses 32bit float for internal signals. If nothing else, if gives you more headroom on the master fader.

We need all the bits we can get!

(btw, I've been using Logic since v2.02... I'd be happy to help any way I can)

gizo
22nd June 2005, 12:25 PM
squozen: yeah, the biggest benefits to a real studios are the room itself, and the presence of an engineer. and a console room and shit like that.
also, don't knock the presence of a bunch of old analog compressors and other shit laying around... they can make quite a difference in the hands/ears of a good engineer....

Squozen
22nd June 2005, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by gringo@Jun 22 2005, 12:25 PM
also, don't knock the presence of a bunch of old analog compressors and other shit laying around... they can make quite a difference in the hands/ears of a good engineer....
So can any decent compressor, age has nothing to do with it. :) I've heard far too many good-sounding albums made with any old tat lying about to be convinced by talk of vintage gear. The latest XTC album and the first Architecture in Helsinki album were both made in home studios of varying quality, and both sound good to my ears (hell, the XTC album is pretty much all Line6 Pod straight into a digital desk and the guitar sounds are terrific).

June's Sound on Sound mag has a nice backpage writeup on society's obession with things from the past being somehow magically better than modern stuff. :P

gizo
22nd June 2005, 01:08 PM
really? d'you reckon an engineer could do no better with a spanky good super compressor than with something from realistic?

i think i misrepresnted myself by using the word 'old'... i didn't mean to start that old vs. new thing... more about the presence of high quality gear.. ignore the age thing..

Squozen
22nd June 2005, 01:51 PM
I used the word 'decent', don't disparage me by suggesting I frequent Tandy stores! :unsure:

gizo
22nd June 2005, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Squozen@Jun 22 2005, 01:51 PM
I used the word 'decent', don't disparage me by suggesting I frequent Tandy stores! :unsure:
prove that you don't.....

Squozen
22nd June 2005, 03:47 PM
*shoots derailed thread in the head* :blink:

marc
22nd June 2005, 04:21 PM
As good as some of the newer and cheaper gear is, don't ever discount the quality of a $5000 analogue compressor/mic pre/eq/etc, vintage or new. Sure, you don't *need* it, but you're crazy if you can't hear the difference.

grorr76
22nd June 2005, 04:56 PM
your all forgetting 1 thing as a sound engineer I have had years of ear training and have a skill, the best mixes are always done by the great engineers, and by engineers i dont mean a dude who can use logic or protools, I mean someone who understands sounds.
What you pay for in a proper studio is the skill of the engineer, the gear is always secondry but a close second, beacuse the engineer a great one can recordind on virtually anything and get it sounding shit hot, thats where your money should always go... :thumbup: and seondry the strngth of a digital sound signal can be atributed to 2 main factors 1 your microphone and 2 your digital converters, the converters are what split a pro studio from a home one, becuase the pro's converters often cost 10's of thousands of dollars and are extremly stable and free from digital jitter.

marc
22nd June 2005, 05:38 PM
I totally agree with that grorr76. Whoever is driving makes a world of difference.