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MacEmpathy
9th June 2008, 09:48 PM
Recently there has been a debate on whether the iMac contains a full desktop 8800GT or an 8800m GTS. I have just run GPU-Z and am now compelled to believe the latter, but this arrises many questions. Do the cards get the same performance? Have you gotten what you paid for? The 8800GS for example has a higher mem and core clock (with 96 stream processors) than the 8800m GTS, which has 64 stream processors. Why also does the iMac not support resolutions on external displays up to 2560 x 1600 like the 8800m GTS does? Is the card in fact an 8800m GTX, since this card has the same number of stream processors as the desktop 8800GS? The only definitive way of finding out is if GPU-Z displayed the number of stream processors. What card is actually used in the iMac? Also, why does the frame rate on COD 4 come 26 short of the 8800GS? Has Apple screwed its customers? These are the questions which need to be answered.

Alec Fraser
9th June 2008, 10:09 PM
So ask Apple.

MacEmpathy
9th June 2008, 10:14 PM
If you mean Apple help line, then they have no idea.

Alec Fraser
9th June 2008, 10:20 PM
Then lodge a complaint mate, the only help you're going to get on the subject is from them.

MacEmpathy
9th June 2008, 10:29 PM
I think I'll have to. But, what is the reliability of GPU-Z?

mac_man_luke
9th June 2008, 10:37 PM
i believe the imac has always used mobile graphics cards, nothing new

Alec Fraser
9th June 2008, 10:39 PM
Here's a question, are you doing the frame rate comparison on a OS X version of COD4? Have you tried it under XP using boot camp? I found that I got a frame rate bump in WoW when running in under XP on exactly the same iMac.

MacEmpathy
9th June 2008, 10:48 PM
I'm talking about XP Pro

iFanboy
10th June 2008, 12:48 AM
I believe the iMac does not support 2560 X 1600 as it does not have a Dual-Link DVI port just a Mini-DVI port supporting a vanilla 1920 X 1200. The card is capable but the port just isn't there

Brains
10th June 2008, 09:21 AM
Short of opening a new iMac and yanking (carefully) off the heatsink and wiping off the (excessive) thermal paste and taking a good macro shot of the GPU ... I don't think we're going to get a solid answer one way or the other.

Who's game?

MacEmpathy
10th June 2008, 08:02 PM
I contacted Apple technical support, and was told that since I was getting my HDD replaced, NextByte could open it and see what graphics card is actually used:D. I was also told that GPU-Z might not be reading the stats correctly (windows driver issue). Does anyone know of any program which does the equivalent in OS X?
Oh, and just a little thing... 3G iPHONE HAS LANDED! YA HAR! lol, 8GB iPhone = $199 US, 8GB iPod touch = $299 US. lolz

Aaron
10th June 2008, 08:07 PM
I contacted Apple technical support, and was told that since I was getting my HDD replaced, NextByte could open it and see what graphics card is actually used:D. I was also told that GPU-Z might not be reading the stats correctly (windows driver issue). Does anyone know of any program which does the equivalent in OS X?


The iMac you have has a mobile graphics card - deal with it.


Oh, and just a little thing... 3G iPHONE HAS LANDED! YA HAR! lol, 8GB iPhone = $199 US, 8GB iPod touch = $299 US. lolz

REALLY!?!?!?!!1 :rolleyes:

MacEmpathy
10th June 2008, 08:25 PM
The iMac you have has a mobile graphics card - deal with it.

Um, actually, Apple support said that it quite possibly uses a custom built desktop 8800GS (size issues). And if it is a mobile chip, I'll simply demand what I paid for, which was a desktop 8800GS. You may not realize this, but what Apple has done (if it is a mobile chip) is a clear violation of the Trade's Practices Act. I've been a loyal customer of Apple, having bought first of all an 80GB iPod 5.5, then a 2.2GHz MBP, 160GB HDD, a 160GB iPod Classic, a brand new 24" iMac with an '8800GS', and soon to be either a 16GB 3G iPhone or 64GB iPod touch. I am entitled to receive what I paid for.

Aaron
10th June 2008, 08:30 PM
Um, actually, Apple support said that it quite possibly uses a custom built desktop 8800GS

Doesn't sound like Apple support gave you a definitive answer.

MacEmpathy
10th June 2008, 08:34 PM
Doesn't sound like Apple support gave you a definitive answer.

*Sinking feeling*
Indeed mate. That's why in the same action of getting my failing HDD replaced, Nextbyte has happily offered to check for me:D

bennyling
10th June 2008, 09:16 PM
Question: did you buy your iMac from Next Byte in the first place?

Right, overwhelming evidence to the fact that your iMac has a mobile graphics chip, I've compiled some links to make you see the truth.

Is iMacs "8800GS" really the 8800GT? - Mac Forums (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=493628)
Apple - Support - Discussions - Can't update nVidia 8800 GS on iMac... ... (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=7328289)
X.Org PCI device/driver list (http://www.calel.org/pci-devices/xorg-device-list.html)
http://www.freshbytes.com.au/images/8800mgts.png
Notebookcheck: NVIDIA GeForce 8800M GTS (http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-GeForce-8800M-GTS.6934.0.html)
techPowerUp GPU-Z Validation 43pxg (http://www.techpowerup.com/gpuz/43pxg/)

If you need any more clarification on this topic, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you via PM.

kim jong il
13th June 2008, 02:26 AM
One thing, though. NVidia isn't the one who's advertising it to be an 8800GS. Apple is, as a CTO option.

NOTE: The quote is wrong as I posted this in the wrong thread first. :o

I did some research hoping to make a point (I failed) but once I'd finished I have to question why Apple call the card an 8800GS? A small amount of research reveals that the iMac NVIDIA 8800 GS is probably (actually?) a rebranded 8800M GTS. Apple do not make this clear anywhere that I could find. While it offers up to 2.2 times the performance of the ATI 2600 that seems the limit of the detail they provide. Bad Apple.

I've summarised a table from the wiki (I actually (conditionally) like the wiki) that compares the two cards and their performance (smaller numbers in red). The cards appear very different in terms of specifications.

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6949/imac8800gscomparisontabxu5.png

Lutze
13th June 2008, 03:30 AM
The GTx and GTS m cpu's can be found here:

NVIDIA GeForce 8800M (http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_8800m.html)


Now the bit you will really dislike, something has been bugging me all night to check, so much so its 2.20 and I am on bed using my iPhone. In your sig here you say you have the 2.8 extreme iMac, so I have been looking at the apple spec sheets. The 2.8 extreme is not the current model and according to apple there was no cto for the 8800 gt. They only added that GPU with the current 2.8 c2d, and that is not listed as the extreme model...

Aaron
13th June 2008, 09:29 AM
NOTE: The quote is wrong as I posted this in the wrong thread first. :o

I did some research hoping to make a point (I failed) but once I'd finished I have to question why Apple call the card an 8800GS? A small amount of research reveals that the iMac NVIDIA 8800 GS is probably (actually?) a rebranded 8800M GTS. Apple do not make this clear anywhere that I could find. While it offers up to 2.2 times the performance of the ATI 2600 that seems the limit of the detail they provide. Bad Apple.

I've summarised a table from the wiki (I actually (conditionally) like the wiki) that compares the two cards and their performance (smaller numbers in red). The cards appear very different in terms of specifications.



From that table - it seems like the card is better in certain areas while providing way less power consumption, but still lacks in some areas...



The GTx and GTS m cpu's can be found here:

NVIDIA GeForce 8800M (http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_8800m.html)


Now the bit you will really dislike, something has been bugging me all night to check, so much so its 2.20 and I am on bed using my iPhone. In your sig here you say you have the 2.8 extreme iMac, so I have been looking at the apple spec sheets. The 2.8 extreme is not the current model and according to apple there was no cto for the 8800 gt. They only added that GPU with the current 2.8 c2d, and that is not listed as the extreme model...

http://forums.mactalk.com.au/12/48681-nvidia-geforce-8800-gs-graphics.html#post496676

Lutze
13th June 2008, 09:39 AM
From that table - it seems like the card is better in certain areas while providing way less power consumption, but still lacks in some areas...




http://forums.mactalk.com.au/12/48681-nvidia-geforce-8800-gs-graphics.html#post496676

Thank you for clearing that up for me. All I can now say is omdfg.

MacEmpathy
15th June 2008, 03:18 PM
Sorry for the confusion, Lutze, I simply put my cpu as being an Extreme since I childishly like the sound of it, and it is the same frequency as the c2e:P, but it is technically a core 2 duo, and it is penryn with a cto for an 8800GS.

Anyhoo, the Apple certified technician at nextbyte pulled apart my iMac to replace the faulty HDD and logic board (the logic board actually wasn't faulty, his boot drive was, but I got a new LB anyway:P), and apparently the graphics card isn't soldered to the motherboard, but is actually a separate card which can easily be removed from the system! Anyway, he wasn't able to remove the heat sync for the card, for it would void the warranty, but the sticker identifying the graphics card was 'G92 GT', which is consistent with a desktop 8800GT (He even asked his colleague about this and he was informed that it was actually an underclocked 8800GT, just as I originally postulated). I informed him of the GPU-Z readings, and he said that the program could be giving false readings due to driver differences in windows etc, but was quite certain the card was a desktop 8800GT. Also, bennyling, there are no mobile drivers available from NVidia except for the 8700M GT.

As of now my iMac has been returned again for warranty reasons, since neither OS X or Windows can detect a sound card or any out put device, the headphone jack also not working. Also, the reason why my HDD failed in the first place it seems is excessive heat, the HDD often exceeding 50 degrees celcius (the fans did not fluctuate in speed at all from 1200 rpm). As a result of this being the problem, when I returned home and installed OS X and XP, my HDD in that time went down from 98% health to 78% health, due to being over 50 degrees for a sustained period of time, and will most likely need to be replaced again.

Another issue I reported was that of a small number of dead pixels. When I got the iMac back from its first warranty repair, I noticed the 'dead pixels' had moved, thus probably being a piece of fluff or dirt which SOMEHOW got behind the glass of the monitor. And that's the rap on my iMac (I must be one of the unlucky ones).

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 11:26 AM
Well, Apple have just admitted it. They falsely advertised the iMac's 8800m GTS as being an 8800 GS. I have to say I'm saddened by it though, not just for the fact the replacement is going to be a windows based pc (which I myself am building), but because of the appalling service and lack of good will I received. Apple's support staff repeatedly stated they'd contact me at a certain time, and on no less than seven separate occasions left me hanging, forcing me to follow them up.
Also, you'd think Apple would try to keep good will to such a loyal customer (one who has purchased two iPods, a MacBook Pro and a falsely advertised iMac and also convinced many hardcore windows users to make the switch), but no. I voiced my disappointment to the one named 'Veronika' in customer relations, and tried to get either a base model Mac Pro to replace the falsely advertised iMac (with an 8800GT since it's the closest Mac available to what was advertised) or a small amount of compensation for all the stress and time wasted. The answer was a straight out "No. Absolutely not." Very disappointing. I only hope that the rumors are true that OS 10.6 will be released for generic PCs as well as Macs (Or I might even wait for the new model MBPs to be released and see what they offer:D). Shame on you Apple.

astr0b0y
25th June 2008, 11:35 AM
Wow, Whirlpool is looking more attractive...

forno
25th June 2008, 11:37 AM
Whats the difference between a GTS and a GS?

bartron
25th June 2008, 11:37 AM
where did you buy from?

I'm not surprised they said no...you want them to replace an iMac with a Mac Pro because the iMac has a 8800GS instead of an 8800GTS? What's the difference that caused stress?

I know there is the retail mantra of "the customer is always right" but there are limits.

If you want Apple to respond, start a class action lawsuit but good luck with that...their website says the iMac has a GS not a GTS so all they need to say is that it was a typo and they have corrected it.

Hamsmyth
25th June 2008, 11:41 AM
OSX will never be available for generic PC's.

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 11:44 AM
No no no. The iMac has a MOBILE GTS instead of a DESKTOP GS. MOBILE, being for a LAPTOP. (FAR LESS POWERFUL. DOES NOT INCLUDE MANY FEATURES A DESKTOP 8800GS DOES ALSO). 8800M GTS=64 stream processors with lower clocks speeds. 8800GS = 96 stream processors with faster clock speeds. ADVERTISED AS 8800GS, actually contains 8800M GTS.

decryption
25th June 2008, 11:45 AM
Hang on, the Apple website says the 24" iMac has a 8800 GS - is this not what's actually installed? Did Apple admit that the iMac does not have an 8800 GS in it but infact the 8800M GTS?

Phil5150
25th June 2008, 11:45 AM
You should have bought a Mac Pro in the first place if you are that picky about it

bartron
25th June 2008, 11:50 AM
so what's the difference with 64 stream processors vs 96 stream processors that causes you stress?

SyncMan
25th June 2008, 11:50 AM
Wow, Whirlpool is looking more attractive...

Trust me, Whirlpool is really no different on this front.

icant
25th June 2008, 11:51 AM
so what's the difference with 64 stream processors vs 96 stream processors that causes you stress?

32 stream processors... Duh.

/joke

NORMANDY
25th June 2008, 11:51 AM
Well, Apple have just admitted it. They falsely advertised the iMac's 8800m GTS as being an 8800 GS. .... Shame on you Apple.

how was it falsely advertised, web site? Local reseller? we need more info.

Really though, you should have a got a Mac pro, rather than an Imac if your GFX concerns are a paramount concern.

blakat
25th June 2008, 11:51 AM
from the apple support pages:

Apple - Support - Discussions - New IMac GeForce 8800 GS Graphics card ... (http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=1544709&tstart=105)

the 8800 GS has been rebranded as the 9600GS (done in May) Apple released the new branded 8800m GTS as the 8800 GS before the nvidia branding (April)

whoop de doo... if you're hard core to that degree about the graphiczzz of your boxenzz why did you not purchase a Mac Pro to start with?

decryption
25th June 2008, 11:54 AM
Am I missing something here? Apple clearly stated the wrong graphics chipset on their website - regardless of the minor differences, this isn't acceptable.

~Coxy
25th June 2008, 11:55 AM
Mac Pros are stupidly overkill for playing games but if you want a 8800GT or a Radeon 3870 in a Mac then it's the only way to get one.

Blame Apple, buy a PC and install OS X on it anyway.

Alec Fraser
25th June 2008, 11:56 AM
Am I missing something here? Apple clearly stated the wrong graphics chipset on their website - regardless of the minor differences, this isn't acceptable.

Nope, you're not missing anything. That's what happened.

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 11:58 AM
so what's the difference with 64 stream processors vs 96 stream processors that causes you stress?

Um, let me think. The performance difference?!? Look up the specs. Also, it isn't a typo. It is consistently on every Apple site, they use the 8800GS logo, and it is also stated to be an 8800GS on my order form and spec sheet, not to mention system profiler on OS X. There is a BIG difference in these two cards. Namely, the 8800m GTS gets roughly two thirds the performance!

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 12:00 PM
You should have bought a Mac Pro in the first place if you are that picky about it

Gee, Phil. I am so picky for objecting to not getting what I paid for:P As for the Mac Pro, look at the price difference.

Also, for the legal action suggestion, I need only go to the ACCC.

MissionMan
25th June 2008, 12:01 PM
I tend to agree, I don't know why people are getting all uppity over the difference in spec, whether there is 5% performance difference or 50%, wrong specs are wrong specs, and the buyer is fully within his rights to complain when they find out the specs are wrong.

astr0b0y
25th June 2008, 12:03 PM
Gee, Phil. I am so picky for objecting to not getting what I paid for:P As for the Mac Pro, look at the price difference.

Also, for the legal action suggestion, I need only go to the ACCC.

Then go there.

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 12:03 PM
how was it falsely advertised, web site? Local reseller? we need more info.

Really though, you should have a got a Mac pro, rather than an Imac if your GFX concerns are a paramount concern.

1. it's advertised by Apple. Check the website.

2. Look at the price difference between an iMac and Mac Pro (add the 8800GT option, the 500GB HDD option, 24" monitor and speakers to the price).

yinyang
25th June 2008, 12:04 PM
Am I missing something here? Apple clearly stated the wrong graphics chipset on their website - regardless of the minor differences, this isn't acceptable.

agree with Decryption here...if Apple have advertised the chipset as X, but is in fact Y then that is false advertising and you should be able to refer them to Consumer Affairs (or whatever government agency deals with these things).

Alec Fraser
25th June 2008, 12:06 PM
Yes, they described the chip incorrectly. Go to the ACCC and be done with it. Complaining about it here isn't going to solve your problem.

Looking at you're self built rig in your signature, I'm wondering why the hell you want an iMac for gaming in the first place? Why the hell would you want a Mac for gaming in general?!

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 12:08 PM
Mac Pros are stupidly overkill for playing games but if you want a 8800GT or a Radeon 3870 in a Mac then it's the only way to get one.

Blame Apple, buy a PC and install OS X on it anyway.

+1 l33t b1x with aw3s0me s4uce;)

tcn33
25th June 2008, 12:13 PM
Look at the price difference between an iMac and Mac Pro (add the 8800GT option, the 500GB HDD option, 24" monitor and speakers to the price).
Then how were you expecting Apple to just roll over and give you a Mac Pro?

Don't get me wrong, I agree that this is false advertising. But you weren't really expecting them to basically hand you $1000, were you?

Geoff3DMN
25th June 2008, 12:16 PM
I can understand people being annoyed that the chip is actually an 8800m GTS rather than an 8800GS because a 33% difference in frame rate (based on the mGTS being 2/3 the speed of the GS) is going to have a big impact in more modern games.

Having said that... they gave you your money back so it's not like you lost anything.

But I agree Apple must change the labeling on the web site ASAP.

tintinaujapon
25th June 2008, 12:35 PM
Am I missing something here? Apple clearly stated the wrong graphics chipset on their website - regardless of the minor differences, this isn't acceptable.

+1. .

halledise
25th June 2008, 12:40 PM
Whats the difference between a GTS and a GS?

I'd say a 'T'

forno
25th June 2008, 12:46 PM
So did you work all this out before you bought or after and now you are pissed your plan didnt work????

NORMANDY
25th June 2008, 12:50 PM
So did you work all this out before you bought or after and now you are pissed your plan didnt work????

:D i know which one :D

Davies
25th June 2008, 12:52 PM
How could you not know that the GPU in the iMac is mobile...the thing is pretty much a laptop with the keyboard broken off. It's obvious that a 8800 CARD would never fit inside it.

g5agogo
25th June 2008, 01:05 PM
Clearly he thought it because this is what Apple said was in the iMac. From the facts presented, it appears clear that Apple made a mistake here, which they have now rectified but clearly not in as optimum a fashion as the OP would have liked. Just because the issue may not be important to other iMac users is of no relevance.



The OP has a right to their feelings and to express them. Intimations of impropriety by the OP are not worthy of this forum.

Geoff3DMN
25th June 2008, 01:07 PM
Apple made a mistake here, which they have now rectified but clearly not in as optimum a fashion as the OP would have liked

Money fully refunded is *always* the optimum fashion. :thumbup:

MidnightMan
25th June 2008, 01:09 PM
I think the OP has done the right thing by raising this as i know I will be checking the specs apple say more closely from now on.

g5agogo
25th June 2008, 01:12 PM
Geoff3DM,

Well, it would be for me, but if the OP feels they've been stuffed around, I can understand why they might feel otherwise.

cussles
25th June 2008, 01:16 PM
This was posted on Apple's own forum on June 3rd... under the title
New IMac GeForce 8800 GS Graphics card is really GeForce 8800M GTS and it is still there, so Apple can't be too concerned.

Apple's own specs list the 8800 GS with 512MB of memory - a quick look at the Nvidia web site shows this to be the 8800GTS, as the 8800GS only has 384MB of memory, a higher clock speed but a lower bandwidth - and mag wheels I guess because a lot of it is gibberish to me.

Interestingly Barefeats conducted a speed test (almost a month ago) between the iMac's base Radeon card and the $220 optional Nvidia card Max OS X 10.5.3 - Core Image improved (http://www.barefeats.com/imp04.html), with the Radeon pretty much the clear winner.

Research before buying is always helpful.

~Coxy
25th June 2008, 01:25 PM
Looking at you're self built rig in your signature, I'm wondering why the hell you want an iMac for gaming in the first place? Why the hell would you want a Mac for gaming in general?!

Some people like Macs and Apple hardware and would prefer to buy one good Mac instead of a Mac and a PC? Even I would buy a 'xMac' if it were to come out, even though it would assuredly cost more than building an equivalent PC.

gelfie
25th June 2008, 01:32 PM
The imac has had (well since the LCD models) an laptop videocard in it since the beginning.

Its well known.

Yes you got a MOBILE 8800m GTS, it has 64 Stream units and 51.2GB/sec memory bandwidth.

The DESKTOP 8800 GS has 96 Stream units and 45.6GB/sec memory bandwidth.

The difference is negligible. Its still a mighty fine card. And in that tiny aluminium case with (14 backlights, in the 24" model, put your face near the screen and feel the heat) and all the other computer bits, do you REALLY think they can put a desktop card in there?

thebag
25th June 2008, 01:44 PM
Oh well MacEmpathy there is only one thing for it now you will have to change your user name to PCEmpathy.

ilostmypassword
25th June 2008, 01:46 PM
Consumer rage! Mistakes happen. Move on.

ilostmypassword
25th June 2008, 01:47 PM
... oh and they refunded your money. That is a great result and Apple have done everything to remedy the problem in my eyes.

Asking for a mac pro is just plain cheeky.

Karma points deducted. :p

Alec Fraser
25th June 2008, 01:48 PM
Some people like Macs and Apple hardware and would prefer to buy one good Mac instead of a Mac and a PC? Even I would buy a 'xMac' if it were to come out, even though it would assuredly cost more than building an equivalent PC.

Sure, I get what you're saying...but the OP has a gaming machine that kicks the pants of the iMac...or any Mac he could get for gaming. So why get so pissed off that it doesn't have an uber graphics card in it when he's already got an awesome machine?

Edge
25th June 2008, 02:09 PM
Apple clearly stated the wrong graphics chipset on their website - regardless of the minor differences, this isn't acceptable.Exactly.

Which entitles the OP (who makes him/herself sound like a pain in the ass for Apple customer care) to a refund. It does not entitle the OP to a Mac Pro, and certainly not any kind of compensation, for what amounts to an imperceptible difference for 99.99% of iMac owners. Talk about getting your knickers in a twist.

Edd
25th June 2008, 02:29 PM
They should've at least paid for the GS model so that you could get it in a box, then ebay it off or gaze at it with hope in your eyes or something.

Brains
25th June 2008, 02:35 PM
I'm still boggling over all this kafuffle, just so someone can get an extra two or three frames of hi-resolution fragging power.

Methinks someone needs a life :)

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 02:38 PM
Yes, they described the chip incorrectly. Go to the ACCC and be done with it. Complaining about it here isn't going to solve your problem.

Looking at you're self built rig in your signature, I'm wondering why the hell you want an iMac for gaming in the first place? Why the hell would you want a Mac for gaming in general?!

For gaming, Macs aren't the best. You're always better off building your own pc, but moving from Windows to Linux, and then discovering OS X, well, I litterally fell in love with the OS. But anyway, it's quite possible Apple will release OS X on generic pcs (attack windows directly), since snow leopard is dropping ppc and going pure intel, and is also not stated as being 'Mac' OS X, just OS X. Anyway, I hope I'm right about my suspicions.

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 02:40 PM
So did you work all this out before you bought or after and now you are pissed your plan didnt work????

Have a guess. Wait, I'll tell you... After:P

jdub
25th June 2008, 02:41 PM
Don't think so.

Releasing OS X on generic pcs goes against Apple's whole ethos.

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 02:41 PM
How could you not know that the GPU in the iMac is mobile...the thing is pretty much a laptop with the keyboard broken off. It's obvious that a 8800 CARD would never fit inside it.

You are missing the point entirely. The point is, they advertised an 8800GS, so I should GET an 8800GS. What's even more reprehensible is that they didn't put in a mobile card with comparable performance!

Phil5150
25th June 2008, 02:45 PM
get ova it

but seriously they should put in the machine whatever they advertise is in the machine
I agree on that part

but you were dreaming if they were gonna give you a Mac Pro

leon
25th June 2008, 02:52 PM
I'm still boggling over all this kafuffle, just so someone can get an extra two or three frames of hi-resolution fragging power.

Methinks someone needs a life :)

And all over a computer that can't even run OS 7.6.1 for gods sake!!!!

Lutze
25th June 2008, 02:55 PM
Apple had wrong specs advertised. Check!

You complained about it. Check!

You got your money back. Check!

Yet still you are unhappy?

Dude, I'd ask the moderators how to change your username here. Empathy has nothing to do with it, and thinking that you are a "loyal" customer who should get a freebie upgrade because of minor, and it IS minor, inconvenience is called in Scotland, Being a Chancer.

Yes, Apple are in the wrong, but that does not mean you should get something for nothing. We've all told you on your (is it 3 or 4 topics regarding this now?) threads. Get over yourself. The card that Apple have in the iMac's are always mobile version. The one Nvidia advertise is not one they have anywhere else on their entire site - due to the increased DDR3 RAM.

I will admit to have been shocked by it, at least at first, but you've pissed and moaned about it for so long now I'm glad it's over. Enjoy windows Fista.

TheKeddi
25th June 2008, 02:56 PM
Wow!

1. you got your money back,

2. scheming to try to get a mac pro is reprehensible,

3. Good luck getting OSX sold for generic PC's

4. Get over it dude, I would hate to see you get ripped off a few cents when they bleep your margarine at the supermarket? what would you ask for then? A Ferrari?

thebag
25th June 2008, 03:08 PM
The one thing I would like to know is what shows up in the description of the card in Apple System Profiler.

Does it show up as the GS, or the mobile card?

Could someone with a 24" iMac answer this please.

Currawong
25th June 2008, 03:22 PM
I've merged both threads on this, as the first contains much of the info that would be useful in the second.

~Coxy
25th June 2008, 03:30 PM
I don't really think he's being 'scheming' or 'reprehensible', surely? He asked for a percentage back, they said no. Asked for a Mac Pro, they said no. Apparently, he left it there, didn't argue with the phone op, didn't start a class action lawsuit, didn't complain to a consumer protection organisation. End of story, presumably, and doesn't sound scheming to me.

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 03:31 PM
This was posted on Apple's own forum on June 3rd... under the title and it is still there, so Apple can't be too concerned.

Apple's own specs list the 8800 GS with 512MB of memory - a quick look at the Nvidia web site shows this to be the 8800GTS, as the 8800GS only has 384MB of memory, a higher clock speed but a lower bandwidth - and mag wheels I guess because a lot of it is gibberish to me.

Interestingly Barefeats conducted a speed test (almost a month ago) between the iMac's base Radeon card and the $220 optional Nvidia card Max OS X 10.5.3 - Core Image improved (http://www.barefeats.com/imp04.html), with the Radeon pretty much the clear winner.

Research before buying is always helpful.

True, but since I ordered the iMac the day after it was released, it was kind of hard to do any research in respect to tests:P

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 03:39 PM
... oh and they refunded your money. That is a great result and Apple have done everything to remedy the problem in my eyes.

Asking for a mac pro is just plain cheeky.

Karma points deducted. :p

Um, you obviously need glasses. The fact is, Apple ripped off a loyal customer who has converted quite a few pc users to getting a mac, and did NOTHING but the bare minimum, took their time about it (valuable study time and also forced me to call them), and when the only helpful person I talked to from tech support (Anthony, may he be commended) went to the Apple Australia manager and asked one of the engineers about the card, this arrogant person said 'It has the card it's supposed to have'. When Anthony asked if he could talk to me about it, he declined. The customer service I received over all would be 2/10, forcing me in many instances to modify my schedule to suit them. So no, I don't think that asking for the closest thing that I paid for (a Mac with a desktop 8800 which is a base model Mac Pro). Also, there's another thing the 8800m GTS doesn't have that a desktop 8800GS has, which is Aegia PhysX support.

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 03:41 PM
Sure, I get what you're saying...but the OP has a gaming machine that kicks the pants of the iMac...or any Mac he could get for gaming. So why get so pissed off that it doesn't have an uber graphics card in it when he's already got an awesome machine?

No, you don't understand. This is what I WILL BE GETTING to replace the iMac.:P

thebag
25th June 2008, 03:46 PM
MacEmpathy,

You keep calling yourself a loyal customer, you've recently bought a few gadgets, a laptop and an iMac,

My idea of a loyal customer is someone who has been buying macs for years.

Yes they mislead you(although I still have issues with that), but they did refund your money in full on what is now a 2nd hand machine.

Build a bridge.

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 03:49 PM
Wow!

1. you got your money back,

2. scheming to try to get a mac pro is reprehensible,

3. Good luck getting OSX sold for generic PC's

4. Get over it dude, I would hate to see you get ripped off a few cents when they bleep your margarine at the supermarket? what would you ask for then? A Ferrari?

Yes, I can see that the scenario you've used is ENTIRELY reasonable and in the same category of absolute retardation. And if you consider wanting WHAT WAS ADVERTISED scheming, then I think you should examine your ethical compass, which appears to be so FUBAR that you'd have trouble finding the toilet in your own home.



The one thing I would like to know is what shows up in the description of the card in Apple System Profiler.

Does it show up as the GS, or the mobile card?

Could someone with a 24" iMac answer this please.

It states 'NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS', but if you look at the product ID assigned by NVidia, it is identical to an 8800m GTS.


I don't really think he's being 'scheming' or 'reprehensible', surely? He asked for a percentage back, they said no. Asked for a Mac Pro, they said no. Apparently, he left it there, didn't argue with the phone op, didn't start a class action lawsuit, didn't complain to a consumer protection organisation. End of story, presumably, and doesn't sound scheming to me.

Thanks for that, Coxy. Good summary.

bennyling
25th June 2008, 03:58 PM
Apple had wrong specs advertised. Check!

You complained about it. Check!

You got your money back. Check!

Yet still you are unhappy?

Dude, I'd ask the moderators how to change your username here. Empathy has nothing to do with it, and thinking that you are a "loyal" customer who should get a freebie upgrade because of minor, and it IS minor, inconvenience is called in Scotland, Being a Chancer.

Yes, Apple are in the wrong, but that does not mean you should get something for nothing. We've all told you on your (is it 3 or 4 topics regarding this now?) threads. Get over yourself. The card that Apple have in the iMac's are always mobile version. The one Nvidia advertise is not one they have anywhere else on their entire site - due to the increased DDR3 RAM.

I will admit to have been shocked by it, at least at first, but you've pissed and moaned about it for so long now I'm glad it's over. Enjoy windows Fista.


Wow!

1. you got your money back,

2. scheming to try to get a mac pro is reprehensible,

3. Good luck getting OSX sold for generic PC's

4. Get over it dude, I would hate to see you get ripped off a few cents when they bleep your margarine at the supermarket? what would you ask for then? A Ferrari?

Both Quoted For Truth. Can we please move on, now?!

thebag
25th June 2008, 04:00 PM
It states 'NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GS', but if you look at the product ID assigned by NVidia, it is identical to an 8800m GTS.

So let me get this straight then, in Apple System Profiler the card information, taken from the bios of the card says that it is 8800GS, but the specs are equivalent to the 8800M GTS.

If this is the case then I think your issue is more with nVidia than with Apple. Have you contemplated the idea that maybe Apple have also been deceived.

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 04:12 PM
So let me get this straight then, in Apple System Profiler the card information, taken from the bios of the card says that it is 8800GS, but the specs are equivalent to the 8800M GTS.

If this is the case then I think your issue is more with nVidia than with Apple. Have you contemplated the idea that maybe Apple have also been deceived.

Surely you can't be that naive, Bag. Apple engineers check the card in every way at least six months before actual production. They have blatantly falsely advertised the card within the iMac. NVidia are simply the maker of the card. Apple chose to put it in their, as Apple are the ones who designed it:P If Apple asked NVidia for an 8800GS, that is what NVidia would give.

Lutze
25th June 2008, 04:18 PM
Surely you can't be that naive, Bag. Apple engineers check the card in every way at least six months before actual production. They have blatantly falsely advertised the card within the iMac. NVidia are simply the maker of the card. Apple chose to put it in their, as Apple are the ones who designed it:P If Apple asked NVidia for an 8800GS, that is what NVidia would give.

I'd say you are the one being naive. Just because nVidia provide Apple engineers with chip x does not mean that they provide the manufacturing centre with chip x. The fact that nVidia has got zero mention of the offending chip on their site says to me they are the ones trying it on.

The Goat
25th June 2008, 04:26 PM
I've recently got a Refurb 24" iMac Ali and it's got a ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro with 256Mb. It's sensational & the screen is lovely.

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 04:31 PM
I'd say you are the one being naive. Just because nVidia provide Apple engineers with chip x does not mean that they provide the manufacturing centre with chip x. The fact that nVidia has got zero mention of the offending chip on their site says to me they are the ones trying it on.

Actually, no they're not, since the product ID shown in Apple system preferences is an exact match to the ID shown on the NVidia site as an 8800m GTS, while Apple are the ones who actually renamed the card in system profiler:P

MacEmpathy
25th June 2008, 04:47 PM
I've recently got a Refurb 24" iMac Ali and it's got a ATI Radeon HD 2600 Pro with 256Mb. It's sensational & the screen is lovely.

Yes, yes it is. They're very nice. That's why this situation saddens me so.

btw, in a way I'm also glad, because the hard drive repeatedly overheats (exceeding 50 degrees), and now the serial number isn't appearing in system profiler:P wtf.

In conclusion, OS X is the best OS in the world (having tried most of them incl. Solaris), bu the only reason you would buy an iMac is for the OS. I mean, you can't use the monitor for anything BUT the iMac (no input, very annoying), and thanks to the MINI DVI port, you can only view up to 1920 by 1200. Also very annoying. All for Mac Mini and Mac Pro though, and double that for MBs and MBPs. If you want a mac more powerful than a mac mini but not as powerful as a Mac Pro, get two minis and two 20" monitors (not Apple monitors, out of date and overpriced).

g5agogo
25th June 2008, 05:09 PM
Is this really still going on? Isn't it all appearing to be a little unproductive? I would have thought that someone would have had the good sense to close the thread. <twiddles thumbs>

Lutze
25th June 2008, 05:12 PM
Yes, yes it is. They're very nice. That's why this situation saddens me so.

btw, in a way I'm also glad, because the hard drive repeatedly overheats (exceeding 50 degrees), and now the serial number isn't appearing in system profiler:P wtf.

In conclusion, OS X is the best OS in the world (having tried most of them incl. Solaris), bu the only reason you would buy an iMac is for the OS. I mean, you can't use the monitor for anything BUT the iMac (no input, very annoying), and thanks to the MINI DVI port, you can only view up to 1920 by 1200. Also very annoying. All for Mac Mini and Mac Pro though, and double that for MBs and MBPs. If you want a mac more powerful than a mac mini but not as powerful as a Mac Pro, get two minis and two 20" monitors (not Apple monitors, out of date and overpriced).

You are such a terrible Apple fanboi! Admit it! ;)

thebag
25th June 2008, 05:16 PM
Is this really still going on? Isn't it all appearing to be a little unproductive? I would have thought that someone would have had the good sense to close the thread. <twiddles thumbs>

Yeah,

I tend to think it has now run its course. And did he get a refund or not as he is now complaining about hard drives and serial numbers.

If you don't like the product don't buy it.

kim jong il
25th June 2008, 05:26 PM
Yeah,

I tend to think it has now run its course. And did he get a refund or not as he is now complaining about hard drives and serial numbers.

If you don't like the product don't buy it.
Currawong merged two (or 3?) threads just a bit earlier as the first thread contained detail relevant to later discussion.

thebag
25th June 2008, 05:30 PM
btw, in a way I'm also glad, because the hard drive repeatedly overheats (exceeding 50 degrees), and now the serial number isn't appearing in system profiler:P wtf.


Kim,

this quote was taken much later(post #89) after the threads were merged and moderated thus my question as to if he got a refund or not, as he speaks in the present tense.

Mark

rowey7777
25th June 2008, 08:35 PM
i just found this and it states clearly what the card is
GeForce 8 Series - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_8_Series)

scroll down to 8800

The Goat
25th June 2008, 09:09 PM
i just found this and it states clearly what the card is
GeForce 8 Series - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_8_Series)

scroll down to 8800

That info, (if true & you believe Wiki), would've probably saved half the posts on this thread.:)

Currawong
25th June 2008, 10:14 PM
Ya know, after reading all this, if NVidia had called the 8800 M GT a GS, there'd be no issue, and no difference to the situation.

Alas, I think the OP bought an iMac for the wrong reasons. People buy Macs primarily for Mac OS X. I think the OP would be better suited to owning an XBox or similar as gaming is more of a priority.

Edd
25th June 2008, 10:17 PM
I think the naming system is just awful and is what leads to confusion like this, you're right, Currawong, there are about 5 8800 models and it all confuses me with GS, GT (x2?), GTS, etc.

thebag
25th June 2008, 10:27 PM
Ya know, after reading all this, if NVidia had called the 8800 M GT a GS, there'd be no issue, and no difference to the situation.

Alas, I think the OP bought an iMac for the wrong reasons. People buy Macs primarily for Mac OS X. I think the OP would be better suited to owning an XBox or similar as gaming is more of a priority.

Actually, after heaps of scouring the nVidia site, if they had just put the 8800M GTX in the iMac he would have nothing to complain about.

Unfortunately there always seems to be much confusion regarding video cards for Mac, as there is so few choices for us and so much more for PC,

Bottom line is do your home work, make sure you get what you pay for. Yeah Yeah he wanted an 8800GS, guess what nVidia don't make them for Mac (check their website). Somewhere along the line there is a discrepancy, whether Apple knew about it or not is a matter of conjecture,

The guy may or may not have got his refund, he is entitled to no more than this, unless he can prove Apple deliberately deceived him.

MacEmpathy
26th June 2008, 11:08 AM
Actually, after heaps of scouring the nVidia site, if they had just put the 8800M GTX in the iMac he would have nothing to complain about.

Unfortunately there always seems to be much confusion regarding video cards for Mac, as there is so few choices for us and so much more for PC,

Bottom line is do your home work, make sure you get what you pay for. Yeah Yeah he wanted an 8800GS, guess what nVidia don't make them for Mac (check their website). Somewhere along the line there is a discrepancy, whether Apple knew about it or not is a matter of conjecture,

The guy may or may not have got his refund, he is entitled to no more than this, unless he can prove Apple deliberately deceived him.

I haven't received the refund as of yet, for I am still waiting for TNT to collect the machine (It is packed up and ready to go). As for Apple's ignorance in respect to what the iMac actually contained, that's actually more of an insult to Apple in a desperate attempt to protect their reputation. THEY PUT THE CARD IN THE MACHINE FOR GOD'S SAKE (testing it thoroughly months before sale). How could they possibly not realise that the card is not an 8800GS? Size, specs, drivers, firmware product ID. What more do you want? Apple KNOWINGLY falsely advertised the specifications of the iMac. As for being happy if they put an mGTX in the machine, I would be fine with that. They get similar performance. As for gaming being my priority, it is equaly prevalent in my mind to work. As for getting an xBox, I have a 360, but I challenge any of you to play an RTS or FPS on a console and not get annoyed with fast (The one exception being Halo 3:P). Anyway, this thread has gone on far longer than I had originally intended, with reasonable people agreeing with my position on the matter (since the items I have bought do not determine my loyalty, but the dedicated Windows users I have turned make more of an impact for Apple), and the unreasonable people disagreeing with me, taking the stance 'Apple is innocent! How could they have known! YOU BE DAMN GREATFUL YOU'RE GETTING A REFUND AND NOT A SLAP IN THE FACE FOR COMPLAINING!'. Quite frankly, I don't care. The fact is, Apple knowingly falsely advertised a product, I wanted a decent gaming machine as well as a brilliant OS (Which is what was advertised and PAID FOR), and I didn't receive that. So, yes, I am annoyed for all the inconvenience and time wasted. How is that unreasonable?
For all those people whining about my complaints, fine, shut down the thread. Maybe get a little bit of legal knowledge, but it certainly is quite low for defying al reason and attacking the agrieved party. I think that's called zeolotry.

blakat
26th June 2008, 11:22 AM
That info, (if true & you believe Wiki), would've probably saved half the posts on this thread.:)

http://forums.mactalk.com.au/12/50777-imac-has-8800m-gts-2.html#post540370

nVidias naming is just awful, and seems to have been changed about the time the iMac was released.... which is just fully awesome. I love this thread.... so pointless.

Customer purchased goods - claimed goods didn't match description - vendor offers refund, fair and reasonable.

MacEmpathy
26th June 2008, 12:27 PM
http://forums.mactalk.com.au/12/50777-imac-has-8800m-gts-2.html#post540370

nVidias naming is just awful, and seems to have been changed about the time the iMac was released.... which is just fully awesome. I love this thread.... so pointless.

Customer purchased goods - claimed goods didn't match description - vendor offers refund, fair and reasonable.

I actually checked the wikipedia post, which was made after I bought my iMac. Also, you can't put a mobile gts and say it's a gs, since the GS gets far better performance. Also the MINOR issue it's blatent false advertising:P

Lutze
26th June 2008, 12:34 PM
I actually checked the wikipedia post, which was made after I bought my iMac. Also, you can't put a mobile gts and say it's a gs, since the GS gets far better performance. Also the MINOR issue it's blatent false advertising:P

Ok, who put new batteries in this argument (it's certainly not a discussion) again? Leave this thread alone!

Apple - you are very naughty people
nVidia - you are very naughty people

MacEmpathy - you are very naughty people.


There. It's done. Leave it. I said leave it! ;)


No... leave that quick reply box alone!

Alec Fraser
26th June 2008, 01:30 PM
THEY PUT THE CARD IN THE MACHINE FOR GOD'S SAKE

The people you spoke to on the phone did not put the card in the machine, they're working on the information they've been given. That information, along with the information on their website is incorrect. You can not fault the people on the phone for not knowing what's in there if they've been given the incorrect information.

Someone at Apple fucked up and put the wrong info out there.

That is the root problem.

If you'd stick to that, rather than ranting endlessly and acting as if every single employee at Apple has taken part in a huge conspiracy to hide this from the public then maybe people wouldn't be reacting to you in the way they have.