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cosmichobo
22nd June 2007, 12:19 AM
G'day,

In 1991 or so, I met Word 5.1a. This was before I even owned a computer in my own home (hey, they were expensive, no matter what type they were). I had however by that point started my leanings towards Mac, having used them at school and friends'... and as far as word processors went, Word really felt the most useful.

Here we are, 16 years later, and I'm still using Word... but now I curse its name on a regular basis, because it's become such a over-laden mule of a program that writing a document has become a real pain...

http://forums.mactalk.com.au/showthread.php?p=313380#post313380

That thread left me both laughing (lovely little video!), and then reminding myself - Oh yeah, I hate Microsoft... So - why am I still using Word?

I've seen threads that list the alternatives... OpenOffice? or some such, etc... And yet I've kept using Word... I've lost work from Word crashing, and yet - I'm still using it...

Am I alone? Or are others also following this pattern of self-abuse?

Do you blame society? Well - my university uses Word... my workplace uses it... It kinda is the standard really... Surely it would be difficult to adjust to a different WP... and then when I send documents to friends, oh Word has enough problems translating from old Word yet alone a different App... I'll just keep using it... Yes... that's the easier option...

Enough! Let's all unite and throw Office in the trash, and, then Empty it...

f1_power
22nd June 2007, 12:23 AM
Try Pages - I've been using it more and more lately and hopefully whenever we see iLife 07 it will be even better.

gameon
22nd June 2007, 12:23 AM
i use pages
if i know its going to be a hassle on the other end i save as a pdf

Rayd
22nd June 2007, 12:24 AM
hang out for office 2008 :)

areal
22nd June 2007, 12:25 AM
Enough! Let's all unite and throw Office in the trash, and, then Empty it...

Done long ago my friend.

sanjay
22nd June 2007, 12:38 AM
go on, just try open.office....then i'll sit back and watch you run crying back to office :)

ClockWork
22nd June 2007, 12:39 AM
Combination of Text Edit + either Pages or InDesign. Word is still useful for quickly reading e-mail attachments (before resaving as an RTF to reopen and save in Text Edit :P).

One cannot avoid using Word as it's so universal. In truth, I haven't the froggiest on how to actually use MS Word - as I only use it to read text / graphs / embedded pictures from clients - that at least gives me an idea of what they're after.

cw

The Fluffy Duck
22nd June 2007, 12:42 AM
just use neo office its free

Its a freaking word processor when all said and done. Not as if their a million alternatives out there :)

rjch
22nd June 2007, 12:45 AM
I commiserate and understand your mild agitation. You can set up NeoOffice as an adequate word screen. it is slower, and a bit dodgy, but I feel better not using Word. You can do it. Just force yourself every 20 minutes a day to use it. Bit by bit the craving to use Word will grow lesser and lesser. One day you will realize that you have returned to workable option.

Johnny Appleseed
22nd June 2007, 12:49 AM
I use TextEdit and save as .doc. But the destination of my files doesn't require fancy formatting.

sarnesjo
22nd June 2007, 12:49 AM
Enough! Let's all unite and throw Office in the trash, and, then Empty it...

I'd happily join you in doing that, but the thing is... I don't use a word processor. Haven't for many years. So I just haven't got any Word angst left in me.

See, the things I write tend to be code or markup (TextMate), e-mail (web browser+TextMate), or papers for uni (latex+TextMate) -- so my life is strangely devoid of Word and its ilk. :)

marc
22nd June 2007, 01:05 AM
i use pages
if i know its going to be a hassle on the other end i save as a pdf
Couldn't agree more.

There's almost nothing anyone could say or do that would make me use Word or Powerpoint... especially when Pages and Keynote are so good. Even annotating and using some of the more complex Word features work in Pages and can be exported to .doc close enough to not matter.

danielvh
22nd June 2007, 01:55 AM
I'd happily join you in doing that, but the thing is... I don't use a word processor. Haven't for many years. So I just haven't got any Word angst left in me.

See, the things I write tend to be code or markup (TextMate), e-mail (web browser+TextMate), or papers for uni (latex+TextMate) -- so my life is strangely devoid of Word and its ilk. :)

Can you explain the combo of latex and textmate for writing uni papers? I'm looking for an alternative.

Could you explain:
1) What these programs do?
and
2) Why using them for uni papers is better than Word?

Thanks

Daniel

MrJesseRoss
22nd June 2007, 02:09 AM
I use Word. Not only because that's all I've used since I got my first computer, but because I know that when I'm working on things between home and uni, they're going to look exactly the same.

Also, flippng between multiple text editing programs is too much trouble when all I want to do is type an essay and be done with it. Word does that job.

sarnesjo
22nd June 2007, 02:28 AM
Can you explain the combo of latex and textmate for writing uni papers? I'm looking for an alternative.

Could you explain:
1) What these programs do?
and
2) Why using them for uni papers is better than Word?

I'll try answering both questions at once. :)

Latex (or LaTeX as it is "properly" written) is a text based typesetting system with roots in ye olde Unix. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX) has more info about it.

Basically, you write plain text files using your favourite text editor (TextMate is mine, but there are many other good ones on the Mac market) in a markup language, and then you run that file through latex and you get a nicely formatted PDF (by default, many other formats are available). The idea here is to separate content (your text) from presentation (the layout of the document, the fonts used etc). It's similar to how it's a good idea to split up web content in (X)HTML and CSS.

So what's so good about it?

Well, due to the aforementioned separation, you aren't forced to use an editor you don't like -- anything that can save files as plain text will do.

Further, since it's all text based, it's brilliant for when you need to create a document from many sources. Say you have to write a presentation about a Matlab assigment. Sure, you could copy-paste code and diagrams from Matlab to a word processor, but then you have to do it all over every time you change your Matlab code. With a system like latex, you can have a tiny shell script that compiles a document from your text, code and diagrams without you having to do a thing but run it. So it has a fair bit of geek appeal.

I feel obliged to point out that Latex is not very good when you want precise control of the layout. Latex emphasizes readability over fanciful looks, and will place images and tables where they do not interfere with the flow of the text (typically on a separate page). This will yield a strict, highly readable, but perhaps boring, layout. In my mind, that is perfect for uni work.

If you wanna give it a spin, I warmly recommend MacTeX (http://www.tug.org/mactex/). It's a complete package that installs everything you need, including a decent text editor with syntax highlighting for latex. Otherwise, installation and configuration can be a bit of a pain.

Hope that helps.

iGOOSE
22nd June 2007, 06:30 AM
I only use Word at work on the PC, at home I use InDesign, Pages and TextEdit.

Free yourself and your harddrive of 500MB or so and uninstall MS Office.

Think different!

Gerbils
22nd June 2007, 06:44 AM
Done long ago my friend.

Ditto that

I use Textedit for small docs I love it, a tiny app that is surprisingly powerful! Any complex doc I use InDesign.

visional_studios
22nd June 2007, 07:09 AM
docs.google.com (http://docs.google.com)

Granny Smith
22nd June 2007, 07:47 AM
I'm a professional writer - let me rephrase that: I write for a living; my professionalism is a matter for another thread - and the sole reason I use Word is because everyone else does. The people I write for need to be able to open and edit the documents I file to them. I compose everything in Pages, and then export to Word. I never open or edit or compose documents in Word - it's now merely a conduit between me and the newspaper or whoever I'm writing for.
I do occasionally use Excel, but I avoid PowerPoint when I can and use Keynote instead.

Geoff3DMN
22nd June 2007, 07:52 AM
I also use word and excel on my powerbook because I have to ensure that the people I send information to get the same layout as what I see when i create the document.

If I create a roster or a timetable (with lots of layout involved) the last thing I want is people to ring up and say "the file you've sent me isn't right".

I'm sort of immune to office 2003 on windows or office on mac but I really really hate the new version of word.

silverdreamer
22nd June 2007, 09:05 AM
Appleworks 6 Works for me!:D

cmjl
22nd June 2007, 09:31 AM
I've been a user of MS Word on the Mac since version 3.0.1 (MacWrite 4.6 before that) and am currently using Word 2004 on my Mac at home, with Office 2003 on my PC (ugh) at work.

When I graduated in Comp Sci back in the late 80's, I was the first graduate to do their thesis using Word (with a rather rudimentary inbuild equation language) instead of using Tex or LaTex, all of which meant that I could type my thesis up at home while everyone else was in the lab at Uni slaving away.

While I'm not a professional writer, I think that I'm one of those people who often uses the 20% of Word's features that many people may not use that is often bemoaned as contributing to making Word a bloated disk and RAM hog.

And when it comes to interoperability, Word is the Visa card of word processors - it's accepted everywhere.

I'm quite happy with it.

About the only thing that I don't like about Word is the way that Microsoft seemingly force one to upgrade. I refused to upgrade from 5.x to 6.x (and I'm glad that I did) and I'm not happy with the way that they are seemingly forcing consumers and companies in PC land now to go to Office 2007 by restricting the availability of older versions. I'd like to see MS make older versions available for free download or on media at nominal cost, so that people with older or less powerful systems can run Word if they choose to.

decryption
22nd June 2007, 09:40 AM
TextMate for me. If I need to format it, I can use markup (BBCode, HTML, whatever). If I need to make it a PDF, I just plonk it into Pages (Or even TextEdit), maybe add in pictures and send it off to whoever as a PDF.

I still have Word on my computer for the clowns sending me Word docs though.

PDF 4 LIFE

Macyoshary
22nd June 2007, 04:50 PM
NeoOffice

shelly79
22nd June 2007, 05:09 PM
I use word because I'm familiar with it and it is the visa of documents.
However, I'm curious as to how other people writing "large" documents go with other programs. I've never tried Pages or Appleworks (except to open something that wouldn't open in word for some reason). The problem with word and large docs is that the moment you put figures in it, it slows right down (and crashes). I'll be writing my thesis next year and will have lots of figures to insert. At the moment, still planning to go with word, use master documents, work out where the photos should be at the last moment and leave extra pages for them and then print and number them separately. Word is a bit annoying at times, but at least I can (mostly) operate it.

tazgtz
22nd June 2007, 05:22 PM
Alot of people say they use Office because everyone else does...

Hey! We are MacUsers, no?

"Think Different" !

I use NeoOffice (http://www.neooffice.org/neojava/en/index.php) when I have to use a word processor or a spreadsheet. And I can save in various different formats including .doc!

Otherwise Pages does well.

jubilantjeremy
22nd June 2007, 05:38 PM
Bean! (http://www.bean-osx.com/Bean.html)

sanjay
22nd June 2007, 06:23 PM
whoa...just downloaded and installed the latest neooffice...

...its SO SLOW - REALLY REALLY SLOW, i could never cope with this from day to day use...

Georgina EG
22nd June 2007, 06:32 PM
Although I have Microsoft Word, I prefer to use Pages which is very simple to use, and a whole lot better than Appleworks 6 which gave me frustrating problems when trying to insert photographs.

bljpoad
22nd June 2007, 07:08 PM
For anything serious I use Latex, but for quick things I either use Text Edit or TextWrangler. If I can avoid Word I do; I don't even have it on my macbook, I use NeoOffice instead
- Berwyck

Geoff3DMN
22nd June 2007, 07:21 PM
I use NeoOffice (http://www.neooffice.org/neojava/en/index.php) when I have to use a word processor or a spreadsheet. And I can save in various different formats including .doc!



For simple documents one can assume that formatting will stay the same, but multi-page documents with inserted tables and pictures are much more pot luck... in some jobs it simply isn't good enough to say "well sorry it was ok when I sent it".

tazgtz
22nd June 2007, 07:28 PM
For simple documents one can assume that formatting will stay the same, but multi-page documents with inserted tables and pictures are much more pot luck... in some jobs it simply isn't good enough to say "well sorry it was ok when I sent it".


I use NeoOffice only when I have too... and as you say for simple documents.

For a multi-page document with inserted tables and pictures I use InDesign... I would certainly not do it in any word processor!

halledise
22nd June 2007, 08:32 PM
I'm an AppleWorks afficianado also.

great powerful little word processor.
also use TextEdit heaps - Pages for DTP

have Word but only use it when PC friends send files or I send to them.

only for copy and paste - even then I mostly use Pages or TextEdit to open .doc files

silverdreamer
22nd June 2007, 09:41 PM
I'm an AppleWorks afficianado also.

great powerful little word processor.
also use TextEdit heaps - Pages for DTP

have Word but only use it when PC friends send files or I send to them.

only for copy and paste - even then I mostly use Pages or TextEdit to open .doc files

you don't even need it for that, Appleworks 6 will allow you to save as windows crap:D! Trash office!:thumbdn:

mvjs
22nd June 2007, 09:50 PM
Use Pages. Love it. :thumbup:

simmie76
22nd June 2007, 11:18 PM
I wouldn't get too attached to Appleworks, I read somewhere that Apple are trying to get rid of Appleworks and push people towards Pages instead.

gmask1
23rd June 2007, 12:00 AM
I don't find myself writing much at home; when I do, it's in a text editor. I use Pages for any DTP things I may have to do, and Word is installed in case I have DOC's to open.

halledise
23rd June 2007, 07:32 AM
I wouldn't get too attached to Appleworks, I read somewhere that Apple are trying to get rid of Appleworks and push people towards Pages instead.

you'll get no argument from me in that case!

:rolleyes:

Geoff3DMN
23rd June 2007, 08:11 AM
For a multi-page document with inserted tables and pictures I use InDesign... I would certainly not do it in any word processor!

I would _love_ to use something other than a word processor but when the government departments one is sending to, and the schools one is sending to, and the private customers one is sending to can pretty much _only_ read word (or pdf) documents then it doesn't leave much choice.

I did for a while try sending stuffs as pdf's (which gave me a greater choice) but I was continually getting complaints that people couldn't edit the pdf's for their own use (as they normally only had reader).

Does InDesign create multi page documents with inserted tables and pictures and have the ability to save them in .DOC format and maintain compatibility over a wide range of office versions? Because if it does then I'll definitely check it out :)

Byrd
23rd June 2007, 09:02 AM
I wouldn't get too attached to Appleworks, I read somewhere that Apple are trying to get rid of Appleworks and push people towards Pages instead.

Considering Appleworks is about 5 years old :)

Alright, I like Word 2004 and Powerpoint 2004. They both work for me and I've not had any issues apart from slow performance using it on ~ 500Mhz machines. And I still use Word 5.1a on older Macs = the fact that it can run on an 8Mhz machine alongside a 240Mhz G3 with no stability issues is impressive enough!

JB

tazgtz
23rd June 2007, 09:30 AM
I would _love_ to use something other than a word processor but when the government departments one is sending to, and the schools one is sending to, and the private customers one is sending to can pretty much _only_ read word (or pdf) documents then it doesn't leave much choice.

I did for a while try sending stuffs as pdf's (which gave me a greater choice) but I was continually getting complaints that people couldn't edit the pdf's for their own use (as they normally only had reader).

Does InDesign create multi page documents with inserted tables and pictures and have the ability to save them in .DOC format and maintain compatibility over a wide range of office versions? Because if it does then I'll definitely check it out :)

No, InDesign (http://www.adobe.com/products/indesign/) does not save to DOC format. Its is a professional desktop publishing program.

Any good word processor can save to RTF format and of course can open it. I've been sending documents in RTF to people that only have MS Office and didn't receive any complaints or questions.

mjankor
23rd June 2007, 09:59 AM
We use Pages here as the main application for documents in our small office. Pages is so much more friendly than Word.

silverdreamer
23rd June 2007, 10:21 AM
I wouldn't get too attached to Appleworks, I read somewhere that Apple are trying to get rid of Appleworks and push people towards Pages instead.

:eek: Yeah ! Well unless they send the bully boys round to take it off me I'll keep useing it.:p

I use it to produce Templates for all my sales documents and Design layouts. And the spreadsheets are awsome for recording sales Data and keeping client records.

I use "Comic Life" to produce cattledogs saved as PDF's :) so anyone can view them, and with the Ical and Address book, that pretty much covers my Working needs.
I agree Pages is a great program, and am graduallyincorporating it's use. But.......

...... I for one "Likes me Appleworks! - It just Works.":D :thumbup:

Gerbils
23rd June 2007, 10:30 AM
Appleworks feels like an OS 9 app!

silverdreamer
23rd June 2007, 10:34 AM
Appleworks feels like an OS 9 app!

:p Thats because it was originally designed on OS9.:p and Graduated to a Clasic App on OSX, before being updated to OSX. But alas, i feel the trend will be towads pages and appleworks will probably disapear.
:(

silverdreamer
23rd June 2007, 10:42 AM
Just out of interest, What's the alternative for spreadsheets other than Appleworks or :Microcrap :rolleyes: Office?:confused:

Gerbils
23rd June 2007, 11:08 AM
:p Thats because it was originally designed on OS9.:p and Graduated to a Clasic App on OSX, before being updated to OSX. But alas, i feel the trend will be towads pages and appleworks will probably disapear.
:(

Actually, it predates OS 9. I was using it on 8.1 (I think it was called Clarisworks back then?)

silverdreamer
23rd June 2007, 11:11 AM
Actually, it predates OS 9. I was using it on 8.1 (I think it was called Clarisworks back then?)

Corrected I Be!:p

tazgtz
23rd June 2007, 12:06 PM
Just out of interest, What's the alternative for spreadsheets other than Appleworks or :Microcrap :rolleyes: Office?:confused:

Open Office (http://www.openoffice.org/) or NeoOffice (http://www.neooffice.org/neojava/en/index.php)

Google Apps (https://www.google.com/a/)

I'm pretty sure there are others around, but I just thought of those right now.

arkenstone
23rd June 2007, 12:53 PM
I had thoughts along similar lines but far before I "Went Mac". I've been using OpenOffice.org (Which I believe is the full brand name) exclusively for a number of years now.

Originally I just installed it to try it out, but I found myself using OpenOffice whenever I wanted to play with bullets or numbering, which to this day confuses MS word no end.

OOo could do my bullets within a numbered lists and so on and one day I had to ask myself why I still created documents in word in the first place. So I stopped.

My iMac came with a copy of office free - it's still in the shrinkwrap. I just don't see the point of it for the wordpressing I do.

About the only thing I'm missing out on by not having MS Office installed (on both Mac and PC platforms) is those stupid powerpoint presentations that get sent around with "amazing photos" and "look at all the puppies" etc. occasionaly don't work. No big loss :)

Geoff3DMN
23rd June 2007, 02:01 PM
Any good word processor can save to RTF format and of course can open it. I've been sending documents in RTF to people that only have MS Office and didn't receive any complaints or questions.

Does saving to RTF preserve the formatting and layout properly then? Sorry to be a nuisance.

tazgtz
23rd June 2007, 02:07 PM
Does saving to RTF preserve the formatting and layout properly then? Sorry to be a nuisance.

No worries.

Most of the formatting will be saved. Check on Google.

shelly79
29th June 2007, 12:04 PM
Is Pages compatible with Endnote bibliographic software?

mvjs
29th June 2007, 12:06 PM
Is Pages compatible with Endnote bibliographic software?

AFAIK, no

g5agogo
29th June 2007, 02:54 PM
Actually, Appleworks was available for the Apple II before it migrated to Mac. and yes at one stage it was ClarisWorks, when Claris was set up as a software developer within Apple (can't remember if it was partially sold-off, then re-bought and folded back-in, or just axed and folded back in later).

Back to Word. I use it a lot on documents where there are up to 20 international contributors. Reviews and comments are then also handled through the revisions mode. However, it's far from WYSIWYG across so many people with different platforms and different version numbers, and the way this screws up formatting can cause all sorts of headaches. After the initial docs are put together in a rough and tumble way using Word, we find that it is far more efficient if all later revisions and comments are done using line numbered PDFs.

Apart from this I have taken to using TextEdit. It's a really handy little application and great for compiling related internet grabs and adding commentary etc. or just notetaking.

Huy
29th June 2007, 03:15 PM
As much as I dislike Office 2004 for Mac, I still use it.
Never really could use Pages or Keynote, as I'm a uni student and most of my learning takes place in PowerPoint format. (Preview handles PDFs just fine).

Word for assignments, etc. I hate to say it, but I use Office 2007 in VMware for my assignments since I got it for $75 (from itsnotcheating.com.au when the offer was on) for Office '07 Ultimate.
Can't wait for 2008 actually... never could use OpenOffice or NeoOffice. I guess I'm too used to Microsoft's productivity tools :(

Alex Morrow
29th June 2007, 03:20 PM
"Actually, Appleworks was available for the Apple II before it migrated to Mac. and yes at one stage it was ClarisWorks" - a trip down memory lane; Apple IIGS that first ran AppleWorks as white text on a blue background; then, wonder of wonders, AppleWorks GS with WYSIWYG! A school I know did all its accounting on the spreadsheet module of this.
On the "alternative to Word" question, is it possible to import (modern) AppleWorks documents into OpenOffice? If I remember rightly, I have imported TextEdit documents, but not the AppleWorks ones.

bookmac
3rd July 2007, 01:26 PM
textedit sucks though, Office is alright but it lags quite a bit much.

queraxus
18th September 2007, 11:04 PM
Supposedly there's a way to use Bibdesk/Bibtex with Pages. Anyone know?

bljpoad
19th September 2007, 12:38 AM
Supposedly there's a way to use Bibdesk/Bibtex with Pages. Anyone know?

Check out this page (http://bibdesk.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/BibDesk_Applescripts), about half way down is a script that is meant to work with Word, and possibly pages. From the readme:


here's how to use the script:
(1) in your word document, make citations as you would in a latex doc
(i.e. \cite{ref}), and put the commands:
\bibliography{bibfile}
\bibliographystyle{unsrt}
at the end of your word document -- where bibfile is the name of the
..bib file (must be in same directory as your word doc), and "unsrt" is
one of the standard bibtex styles (the others work as well, i just like
unsrt).
(2) save the word document
(3) make sure it's the only open word document [i think]
(4) double-click the script app
(5) voila! after a few seconds, you should see an rtf file pop open in
word with every line containing a \cite command followed by a formatted
bibliography. (if it doesn't work, check for error messages in
Console.app).


I guess YMMV applies here!
- Berwyck

EDIT: Here is another one, citation helper for Pages (http://rubyforge.org/frs/shownotes.php?release_id=2118). I really should add I have not used either of these tools, if I am writing in Pages it is something short that does not need bibliographies! :)

doctoralf
23rd September 2007, 04:32 PM
just use neo office its free

Its a freaking word processor when all said and done. Not as if their a million alternatives out there :)

It's a word processor... and a presentation app... and a spreadsheet, and what not.

I used NeoOffice for nothing but calc, because Numbers is not powerful enough (the damned thing can't transpose data arrays, what's the point?).

Doing it in Calc was not as elegant or as easy to do in Excel, but I figured it was free and universal binary. All was well until I discovered that it was mangling my data. When I had it sort a series of numbers based on a key, it, for no obvious reason, converted very small values (such as 0.000048) into all zeros. Since then I've banished the monstrosity from my MacBook, and will stick to Office 2007 and iWork 08 until we finally get a universal version of MS Office.

FYI, I use pages as much as I can, but the fact that you can't use EndNote with it makes it somewhat useless to me (I am not able to keep track of 50 references for each manuscript I prepare, I'd prefer to spend that time doing something else).

doctoralf
23rd September 2007, 04:38 PM
Is Pages compatible with Endnote bibliographic software?

Pages is not compatible with any bibliography manager, afaik, because apple don't let third parties write plugins for it.