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kaisersozay
28th February 2004, 04:30 PM
Bought an iMac which has OSX 10.2 on deck. but no sign of any OS9. I have OS9 CD but no OSX. Need to have OS9 to run earlier apps. How can I do this re install without removing OSX?
Option 1: Use OS9 CD to boot and install to existing Classic Folder <empty> on iMac. Possible?
Option 2: As option 1, but convert System file to .dmg in Classic Folder. Unnecessary?
Option 3: Acquire OSX CD <I assume it contains OS9 in its Classic form>
Also which version is necessary? My latest CD is OS 9.1 and then upgraded to 9.2.1 and then 9.2.2. I am not aware of a 9.2.2 CD, so is it necessary to do the install and then each upgrade or can I drag a full 9.2.2 from the iBook?
Don&#39;t know the first thing about OSX yet, so please be patient and not too technical. :blink:

mhollis
1st March 2004, 01:50 AM
The easiest solution is to buy a firewire drive and install OS 9 on it. That gives you the ability to boot into System 9 if your iMac is old enough to do that (built before 1 January, 2003) and to run Classic -- Just tell OS X where to find your System 9 folder.

Any other solution has you purchasing an OS X disk. I do not believe the upgrade disks have System 9 on them at this time.

Disko
1st March 2004, 08:56 AM
even the new disks don&#39;t have os9 on them.

All i do on my powerbook is copy the "System Folder" wherever i want and classic runs off that. There has to be an easy way to do this though.

kim jong il
1st March 2004, 09:52 AM
[quote]Bought an iMac which has OSX 10.2 on deck. but no sign of any OS9. I have OS9 CD but no OSX. Need to have OS9 to run earlier apps. How can I do this re install without removing OSX? (unquote&#33;) I&#39;ll get the text formatting caper sussed out eventually.

Most easily, you&#39;re on a mac

"Option 1: Use OS9 CD to boot and install to existing Classic Folder <empty> on iMac. Possible?"

Absolutely, works for me, here or anywhere. (although I&#39;m not sure about hard drive formatting and how this may affect things) I&#39;m assuming it is a standard mac hfs (extended or + or whatever they call it) format. If its got a classic folder the OS probably expects it to run.

"Option 2: As option 1, but convert System file to .dmg in Classic Folder. Unnecessary?"

No idea, but you&#39;d have to mount the image to use it anyway. So yes, unnecessary and pointless unless you are archiving a blueprint OS 9.x install (actually, this is not a bad thing to do. it does not take up much space and you get to keep the OS 9 version that you like. more on this later)

"Option 3: Acquire OSX CD <I assume it contains OS9 in its Classic form"

No, I do not believe it does. You have just purchased a licence for OS X 10.x.x, not 9.x.x. I have 10.3 and have seen no trace of it (I havent looked however). I do, however, believe that now, OS 9.0 is a free (unsupported) download. If this is the case you can download an installer image for your particular machine from Apple. (PLEASE correct me someone)

"Also which version is necessary? My latest CD is OS 9.1 and then upgraded to 9.2.1 and then 9.2.2. I am not aware of a 9.2.2 CD"

I&#39;m guessing this is just a copy of a system folder from where?

"so is it necessary to do the install and then each upgrade"

YES

"or can I drag a full 9.2.2 from the iBook?"

NO. Well, you could, but this is a really bad idea. It may run, but it won&#39;t be stable. Copying an OS from one machine to another unless they are identical is bad.

"Don&#39;t know the first thing about OSX yet, so please be patient and not too technical. :blink: "

I hope you are following so far. At the beginning I mentioned installing and then archiving the OS.

If you have an imac OS 9.1 install disk, start here. Boot off the CD (help tells you about this) or click on the install system software icon on the CD. The computer will insist on rebooting and will promptly reboot from the CD. If your imac is not capable of booting in classic mode this is outside my experience although I would guess the installer would run in classic mode and OS X may request ROOT user permission to install OS 9. If you have an early imac just continue. Click on the install system software icon and install OS 9.1 ANYWHERE you want. These are completely different OS&#39;s and basically only recognize each other as files.
Because you have cleverly placed the software update images somewhere handy, run the 9.2.1 installer and finally the 9.2.2 (path, 9.0, 9.1, 9.2.1. 9.2.2 as you thought earlier). At this stage, or any of the previous OS 9.x.x stages you can stop and away you go. The startup disk is set by a control panel (in OS 9) and you can select either an OS 9 or OS X volume as the startup volume.

At this point it is a good time to duplicate the OS 9.x.x system folder and image it. Throw away the copy unless you are familiar with preventing OS 9 system folder clashes (when booting in classic mode only. OS X lets you select from multiple OS 9.x system folders, but it&#39;s a GOOD idea not to have more than one on any single startup volume, especially if you are a learner). The image is a more or less pristine copy that in case of corruption is far faster than installing to restore. You just mount the image, open, drag, drop. Too easy.

cheers, kim

kaisersozay
1st March 2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by kim jong il@Mar 1 2004, 09:52 AM

[If you have an imac OS 9.1 install disk, start here.]

No. A genuine universal OS 9.1 CD.

[Boot off the CD (help tells you about this) or click on the install system software icon on the CD. The computer will insist on rebooting and will promptly reboot from the CD. If your imac is not capable of booting in classic mode this is outside my experience although I would guess the installer would run in classic mode and OS X may request ROOT user permission to install OS 9. If you have an early imac just continue.]

Yes. It is an early iMac Indigo 300, ID=32.
Did boot of the install disk but only Directory option is iMac HD <i.e. no internal folders such as Classic Folder availability>
Then Easy Install shows START as greyed out.
Clean Install however, is ok but I do not know if this will change OSX System Folder to Previous System Folder and cause problems later.
BTW, Help just says Install OS9 with no further detail.

[Click on the install system software icon and install OS 9.1 ANYWHERE you want. These are completely different OS&#39;s and basically only recognize each other as files.]

See my previous paragraph.


[Because you have cleverly placed the software update images somewhere handy, run the 9.2.1 installer and finally the 9.2.2 (path, 9.0, 9.1, 9.2.1. 9.2.2 as you thought earlier). At this stage, or any of the previous OS 9.x.x stages you can stop and away you go. The startup disk is set by a control panel (in OS 9) and you can select either an OS 9 or OS X volume as the startup volume.

This point it is a good time to duplicate the OS 9.x.x system folder and image it. Throw away the copy unless you are familiar with preventing OS 9 system folder clashes (when booted in classic mode only). The image is a more or less pristine copy that in case of corruption is far faster than installing to restore.]


If ever successful, I will do all the above.
Thanks so far, Kim

jameso
1st March 2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by kim jong il@Mar 1 2004, 09:52 AM
[quote]Bought an iMac which has OSX 10.2 on deck. but no sign of any OS9. I have OS9 CD but no OSX. Need to have OS9 to run earlier apps. How can I do this re install without removing OSX? (unquote&#33;) I&#39;ll get the text formatting caper sussed out eventually.

Most easily, you&#39;re on a mac

"Option 1: Use OS9 CD to boot and install to existing Classic Folder <empty> on iMac. Possible?"

Absolutely, works for me, here or anywhere. (although I&#39;m not sure about hard drive formatting and how this may affect things) I&#39;m assuming it is a standard mac hfs (extended or + or whatever they call it) format. If its got a classic folder the OS probably expects it to run.

"Option 2: As option 1, but convert System file to .dmg in Classic Folder. Unnecessary?"

No idea, but you&#39;d have to mount the image to use it anyway. So yes, unnecessary and pointless unless you are archiving a blueprint OS 9.x install (actually, this is not a bad thing to do. it does not take up much space and you get to keep the OS 9 version that you like. more on this later)

"Option 3: Acquire OSX CD <I assume it contains OS9 in its Classic form"

No, I do not believe it does. You have just purchased a licence for OS X 10.x.x, not 9.x.x. I have 10.3 and have seen no trace of it (I havent looked however). I do, however, believe that now, OS 9.0 is a free (unsupported) download. If this is the case you can download an installer image for your particular machine from Apple. (PLEASE correct me someone)

"Also which version is necessary? My latest CD is OS 9.1 and then upgraded to 9.2.1 and then 9.2.2. I am not aware of a 9.2.2 CD"

I&#39;m guessing this is just a copy of a system folder from where?

"so is it necessary to do the install and then each upgrade"

YES

"or can I drag a full 9.2.2 from the iBook?"

NO. Well, you could, but this is a really bad idea. It may run, but it won&#39;t be stable. Copying an OS from one machine to another unless they are identical is bad.

"Don&#39;t know the first thing about OSX yet, so please be patient and not too technical. :blink: "

I hope you are following so far. At the beginning I mentioned installing and then archiving the OS.

If you have an imac OS 9.1 install disk, start here. Boot off the CD (help tells you about this) or click on the install system software icon on the CD. The computer will insist on rebooting and will promptly reboot from the CD. If your imac is not capable of booting in classic mode this is outside my experience although I would guess the installer would run in classic mode and OS X may request ROOT user permission to install OS 9. If you have an early imac just continue. Click on the install system software icon and install OS 9.1 ANYWHERE you want. These are completely different OS&#39;s and basically only recognize each other as files.
Because you have cleverly placed the software update images somewhere handy, run the 9.2.1 installer and finally the 9.2.2 (path, 9.0, 9.1, 9.2.1. 9.2.2 as you thought earlier). At this stage, or any of the previous OS 9.x.x stages you can stop and away you go. The startup disk is set by a control panel (in OS 9) and you can select either an OS 9 or OS X volume as the startup volume.

This point it is a good time to duplicate the OS 9.x.x system folder and image it. Throw away the copy unless you are familiar with preventing OS 9 system folder clashes (when booted in classic mode only). The image is a more or less pristine copy that in case of corruption is far faster than installing to restore.

cheers, kim
Man, i just typed this all out then realized that u had as well

jameso

kim jong il
1st March 2004, 04:45 PM
Hi kaiser, The universal install OS 9.1 CD is a perfect place to start.

Get over your nerves. Installing OS 9.1 is perfectly safe and WILL NOT interfere with OS X (unless of couse you have relabled the volume &#39;system folder&#39; or re-labled the OS X &#39;system&#39; with the afformentioned name. However no one that I am aware of would do this) If you did not understand this forget it and just go ahead and install the thing. Clean install is fine. This just means that it will install a completely fresh OS 9 system folder and not preserve your old extensions etc (of which you have none anyway&#33;) If the installer is up and running, it will ask you to select a location to install OS 9. As your hardrive probably does not have multiple partitions (based on what you have said), you will only have one choice.

JUST install, Do it. If you are still worried about OS 9 and OS X somehow clashing with each other, stop now (worrying that is). Think of it like this, oil and water do not mix.

cheers, kim

jameso
1st March 2004, 05:14 PM
JUST DON&#39;T PRESS THAT RED BUTTON..... oh wait...

jameso

kim jong il
2nd March 2004, 07:15 AM
kaiser, another thing, don&#39;t forget to post some follow up. I&#39;d like to know if the advice was clear and helpful. Or either of these? Neither?

EDIT 1: BTW your standalone OS 9 extensions generally ARE transferable from your ibook. Be careful to transfer related control panels also. Application specific extensions are best installed with the application installer. Also, application installers are usually intelligent enough not to replace a new version of an extension with an older one. ibook/notebook specific extensions will be useless on your imac and vice versa.

cheers, kim

jameso
2nd March 2004, 09:46 AM
I&#39;m following your advise kim and it is quite sound

jameso

kaisersozay
2nd March 2004, 10:15 AM
Hi Kim,
Yep. Took 2 Rohipnol and bottle of Scotch and understand completely your instructions. Sounds reasonable to me. Looks like Jameso agrees.
Had to laugh when I saw your comment about renaming the folder/s. On checking the iMac under 10.2, I notice the System Folder is labelled SYSTEM FOLDER&#33;&#33;
So, should I rename the iMac System Folder <OS X> before I begin?
BTW thanks for the PM.

Jameso, are you doing a similar install or just refereeing developments?

I have another question on a slightly different subject relating to my scanner and G3 Beige DT with USB card and I will start a new topic about that but was curious when Kim said iBook/iMac extensions will not necessarily work in vice versa units. Does that apply also to lifting an extension from iBook to the G3 DT?
Thanks again. I know that explanations are often time consuming and the effort is appreciated. It may be a day or two before I tackle the iMac again <it is a gift for my daughter> and I will post my procedures and successes.

Disko
2nd March 2004, 10:20 AM
Your OSX System folder should already be named "System" and your OS9 System folder should already be named "System Folder". that way they don&#39;t interfere.

But don&#39;t go changing the names of your system folders without knowing what may happen as a result - i&#39;m unsure of if you can even do this.

jameso
2nd March 2004, 10:35 AM
"Does that apply also to lifting an extension from iBook to the G3 DT?"

All extensions should work if they relate to something relevant on the DT. So if you had a usb scanner on you iBook and wanted to use it on your g3 you could copy the extensions across.

jameso

kaisersozay
2nd March 2004, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by jameso@Mar 2 2004, 10:35 AM
All extensions should work if they relate to something relevant on the DT. So if you had a usb scanner on you iBook and wanted to use it on your g3 you could copy the extensions across.

jameso
I thought this would be so. Both machines are OS 9.2.1
Scanner works fine with iBook
No good with G3 and same ext <USB Driver 1.5.5> but G3 has USB PCI card and not biological USB. Is that the problem? If so, is it fixable <e.g. better PCI card?>

Should this be a new topic?

Disko
2nd March 2004, 10:59 AM
You can make a new topic only if you see fit. I don&#39;t have any problems with you discussing it here...

kim jong il
2nd March 2004, 11:27 AM
kaiser, I&#39;m a bit concerned about your post. Lets clear things up. It is as disko posted before.

An OS 9.x installer will install a folder named &#39;System Folder&#39; within which you will find your extensions and control panels folders as well as essential system files. Two of these being your OS 9 buddies the &#39;finder&#39; and &#39;system&#39;. The latter two cannot be &#39;opened&#39; as such, to examine their contents.

What I would like to know is, what is in YOUR &#39;system folder&#39;?

The OS X installer, installs a folder called &#39;System&#39; that contains 1 item called &#39;Library&#39; which contains a large number of folders that contain essential system resources. This IS the OS X system folder.

This just occurred to me. The &#39;Library&#39; folder contains an empty (may contain hidden files) folder called &#39;Classic&#39;. DO NOT install items here. This is the system folder and is used primarily by the system only. Most users should never have any real need to be poking around in here. I hope there has not been any misunderstanding here. Have you looked at the set startup disk control panel in the OS X &#39;system preferences&#39;, found in the dock or under the apple menu and checked the startup volume options?

You can easily identify an OS X system if you are not at all sure (after all some items do have the same names) by looking at the extensions (system/library/extensions), for example, that virtually all have the suffix .kext OR sometimes, bundle. OS X volumes can also be identified by the presence of packages, .pkg and others.

cheers, kim

Disko
2nd March 2004, 11:43 AM
Heres a screenshot of what my system and classic folders look like. This is how it should turn out on yours.

Good luck.

kaisersozay
2nd March 2004, 05:30 PM
Thanx Disko. The screenshot is a graphic clarification of what should be there and all appears to be correct.
Also thanks to Kim for pointing out that the Classic folder should remain empty. Or not to drag stuff into it. Won&#39;t let me anyway. Being an old Mac OS person I am used to behaving with that cavalier attitude. OS X has obviously different and Unix manners. I will ask in future.
Going bush for a few days, tomorrow am, so will be back asap.
Just like to say many thanx so far for all the assists. This is a great group. More power to you all&#33;

mhollis
3rd March 2004, 03:02 AM
I would also add to kaisersozay that he needs to be very careful when booting into System 9. Most of the "messed up permissions," "munged my hard drive," "can&#39;t boot" problems I have seen (outside of a disk drive going bad) tend to relate to going about one&#39;s hard drive like a bull in a china shop in System 9. Apple&#39;s previous operating systems were no respecters of permissions, ownerships and drive hierarchies. The best way to keep one&#39;s hands off things one should not touch on an OS X system is to boot only in OS X and run System 9 in "Classic" mode from within OS X. That way you will be denied permission to do something you should not.

There are reasons to boot into System 9 and they tend to involve things like updating firmware and such, but once those tasks are done, it&#39;s best to return to OS X.

jameso
3rd March 2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by kaisersozay@Mar 2 2004, 10:51 AM
I thought this would be so. Both machines are OS 9.2.1
Scanner works fine with iBook
No good with G3 and same ext <USB Driver 1.5.5> but G3 has USB PCI card and not biological USB. Is that the problem? If so, is it fixable <e.g. better PCI card?>

Should this be a new topic?
PCI usb cards and 9.1 or 9.2 are always fun. Open a new thread and ill post the info you need to get it working

jameso

kaisersozay
7th March 2004, 01:17 PM
Many thanks to kim...
Did a Clean Install of OS 9.1 ex CD and installed without problem. Using Ethernet, transferred my Photoshop 6 to the OS 9 Applications Folder and opened from the application without difficulty. had a look in System Preferences <selected from the Dock> and confirmed that Classic was indeed running.
Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion and I take on board the comments about booting into OS 9. Obviously to deal with extensions, prefs etc, one would need to do that.
Thanks againfor a great result.

Disko
7th March 2004, 01:43 PM
It&#39;s great to see a happy ending, isn&#39;t it. :)