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applecollector
11th April 2006, 04:28 PM
Today i can across a very interesting conversation with a friend of mine which slowly evolved in to a mini argument.
The question is: Will 10.5 Leopard support the G3 Processor?
Why wouldn't it i my guess their are so many people out their still on G3's including myself (well i am a collector!) or will it be only the high end G3's that will support leopard?
Also what about the current upgrade cards for the B&W & other G3's will they be supported?

Anyways what are your views on this strange topic?

Quamen
11th April 2006, 04:30 PM
My guess is no.

Legacy support isn't one of Apple's favorite tricks. Chances are it'll be memory or graphics cards and feature degradation that forces out the G3 machines.

applecollector
11th April 2006, 04:34 PM
What if you had a REALLY high end machine?

eg.
G3 350Mhz
1Gb Ram
128Mb ATI 9200 Grpahics Card
USB 2.0 & Firewire
etc...

Or what ever highend G3 you can think of.

mechcon
11th April 2006, 04:40 PM
highest i've seen is 500mhz no?

iSlayer
11th April 2006, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by applecollector@Apr 11 2006, 04:34 PM
What if you had a REALLY high end machine?

eg.
G3 350Mhz
1Gb Ram
128Mb ATI 9200 Grpahics Card
USB 2.0 & Firewire
etc...

Or what ever highend G3 you can think of.
haha
i love hearing people call a g3 350 "high end"

chances are 10.5 will work on some G3's but not all just like now

titan44
11th April 2006, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by mechcon@Apr 11 2006, 04:40 PM
highest i've seen is 500mhz no?
I think it's 900

Aa
11th April 2006, 04:51 PM
ooooh... 350mhz that'd be 'Blazing Fast'

they all 'run' tiger well enough but the graphics cards make concessions with some of the slick graphic stuff at the moment, so that will only get worse as more elemnts are introduced.

I've got a 500 dvi at home and feel confident that it will see the kids through primary.(another 4 years)

eroda
11th April 2006, 04:51 PM
allt he b&w towers and the later white ibooks that would be it, ie all g3 imacs, and g3 pbooks and clamshell good ness willbe gone, i think they will phase out support via firmware update ie all g4 machines and the aformentioned g3 machines iwll receive a firmware update
and that will be it

Currawong
11th April 2006, 04:52 PM
The G3 and G4 CPU's aren't radically different enough that if Leopard supported the G4, it would follow it would support a machine with a G3 CPU. Expanding on what iSlayer says, it would more likely to be limited by other parts of the hardware - it might run on old G3's but not support some new features which depend on relatively new graphics or other hardware.

morgan
11th April 2006, 04:54 PM
If a G3 350 is high end, then is my 1.6 Ghz G5 in space??

applecollector
11th April 2006, 04:56 PM
I wasn't necessary calling a B&W G3 350 high end G3 but either way my G3 B&W wont be G3 for long i'll be making the G4 1Ghz Upgrade!
So everyone thinks that the G3's will not be supported?
and yes the highest apple G3 you can get is 900Mhz but you can get a 1.1Ghz G3 upgrade for the G3 powerbooks!
Well i hope that apple still have G3 support for Leopard!! lol

Byrd
11th April 2006, 05:09 PM
Apple's current hardware requirements for 10.4 are a G3 processor, firewire port and 256Mb RAM. In other words, nothing special.

Considering that there are many G3 machines - especially iBooks - hovering up to 900Mhz clock speeds, these machines are still very useful and fast enough and I've no doubt that 10.5 will still be supported on G3's.

In the rare chance that it isn't, no doubt XPostFacto will be updated to run on G3 CPUs. It's previous supported 603 and 604 CPUs to run up to 10.2, so there is no doubt getting a G3 to work will be relatively easy.

JB

tintinaujapon
11th April 2006, 05:18 PM
No.

lavo
11th April 2006, 05:18 PM
Then again, we have virtually no info bar Boot Camp of what is actually in Leopard. We don't know how much of an upgrade it is over 10.4, whether it builds upon the core features of 10.4 or goes beyond.

I'm guessing Apple will pull all stops out for 10.5. Once (or if) Vista actually ships, MS will have gained some considerable ground on OS X as far as features are concerned.

I'd say G3s will be dropped, and it will be through graphics cards, bus speed and memory requirements. Apple really want to drive home how much better their OS is, which will mean they don't want older hardware holding back their "new" OS. And I wouldn't be surprised to see some more Intel-only elements included (ie Boot campe etc).

applecollector
11th April 2006, 05:31 PM
As it was mentioned above their are no special requirement for 10.4 to run however obviously you need a far better computer to accually run it at a good speed.
Eg an iBook Clamshell 366 or a stock B&W 300 or 350Mhz would really suck at Tiger.
I guess if people would upgrade their machines to the max like what i'm going to slowly do to my B&W i think it will still support leopard.
No doubt their will be features that will only work on intels like bootcamp of previously when tiger came out some machines couldn't do the core image wave effect in dashboard like my 1.25Ghz emac!
But i'm 100% sure that older G3's like an iBook 366Mhz even with 512Mb Ram would not be able to run leopard.
What about CPU Upgrades? eg G3 to G4?

PS: thankyou very much for the great replys!

timwallG5
11th April 2006, 05:36 PM
In my belief I think Apple is bound to scrap G3 support alltogether in 10.5.
It's already done so with every new application.
They were even planning to scrap G3 support with 10.1, to favour the G4's AltiVec instruction set. But they didn't, because it'd be cruel.
And it'd be useless trying to run 10.5 on a G3 even if it did have support. Apple would make sure it ran sluggishly, to convince you to upgrade to one of it's new Intel Inside computers...

hawker
11th April 2006, 05:55 PM
It will support it, like an iMac G3 600mhz, or an iBook G3 900mhz, but something silly like a powermac G3 300mhz, will probably notice major lag, and it won't be worth putting it on. Along with the fact that it will probably have many unsupported hardware pieces in it.

applecollector
11th April 2006, 05:59 PM
Well if i were to upgrade my current B&W to the following will it run loepard do u think?

G4 1Ghz (CPu Upgrade)
1024Mb Ram (1Gb Ram)
128 ATI 9200 Graphics Card
Dual Layer Dvd (Not that the drive matters)

hawker
11th April 2006, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by applecollector@Apr 11 2006, 05:29 PM
Well if i were to upgrade my current B&W to the following will it run loepard do u think?

G4 1Ghz (CPu Upgrade)
1024Mb Ram (1Gb Ram)
128 ATI 9200 Graphics Card
Dual Layer Dvd (Not that the drive matters)
yep - I can't see why not.

The more ram you chuck in it the better it will run of course ;)

applecollector
11th April 2006, 06:04 PM
I would but i think thats the max!!
Or can i put in more lol like 2Gb lol

hawker
11th April 2006, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by applecollector@Apr 11 2006, 05:34 PM
I would but i think thats the max!!
Or can i put in more lol like 2Gb lol
Yes I think you're right. It was the early G4's with AGP and PCI that could take up to 1.5GB in OS 9 and 2GB in OS X.

lavo
11th April 2006, 06:12 PM
Better still, sell the G3 for whatever you can and put the money towards a decent G4. You can pick up a decent 450 or 500 DP now for good money. OS X *loves* dual processors :-)

Even with all those extras, you are still going to be hampered by a 100Mhz bus.

Without any info on 10.5, we can't even guarantee that Xposto will be able to get it to run.

vargz
11th April 2006, 06:28 PM
On a side issue, when is Leopard expected to be released? I've heard as early as this August - but that seems a little soon, I'd be thinking more so in another 12 months, perhaps April/May 2007.

Any thoughts?

tommelbourne
11th April 2006, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by applecollector@Apr 11 2006, 06:59 PM
Well if i were to upgrade my current B&W to the following will it run loepard do u think?

G4 1Ghz (CPu Upgrade)
1024Mb Ram (1Gb Ram)
128 ATI 9200 Graphics Card
Dual Layer Dvd (Not that the drive matters)
I'd say that, while it would run, bus speed is something that you cannot upgrade and which is going to slow down the entire system, no matter what hardware you put in it.

As lavo suggested, you would be better off putting your money into getting a DP G4. Even if it has a lower clock speed, bus speed and other subtle improvements will most likely have it outperforming any upgraded B&W.

disgust
11th April 2006, 07:15 PM
you can watch todays TV shows on a Black n White portable set from the 70's. It aint great but it works.

kurisu
11th April 2006, 07:19 PM
i would have thought it won't even support PPC-based mac?

applecollector
11th April 2006, 07:27 PM
Now thay i highly doubt!

downsys
11th April 2006, 07:29 PM
i believe Apple said that it will support PPC-based macs. Maybe no longer in 10.6, but definately in Leopard.

it's said that we'll be given a glimpse of it in August but it might not be released till later in the year of early next year. here's hoping it will be a blast! (i haven't upgraded to Tiger as i haven't seen the need to yet)

it'll be great if the MacBooks come pre-installed with Leopard though :P

tommelbourne
11th April 2006, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by kurisu@Apr 11 2006, 08:19 PM
i would have thought it won't even support PPC-based mac?
Umm, no. Plain and simple. PPC support will be around for many years to come, considering that 99% (my best guess) of Mac users are still on PPC at this stage.

I would guess that early/mid 2009 is the earliest we can expect an OSX version (if it is still OSX, that is!) that is Intel-only, assuming that the uptake of Intel-based hardware will reach c.70% by this stage.

nicwithsticks
11th April 2006, 07:30 PM
I love seeing how everyone gets all uppity about old hardware support in new OS's. The fact of the matter is, that for an OS to keep evolving, it has to scrap support for older hardware sooner or later. A good few years of solid usage is pretty standard these days.

The same goes for software. Why do people insist on running their 9 year-old (or round about) applications in a brand new OS? In all honesty, I think 4-5 years of use out of an app is a pretty good average.

I'm a big believer that: if Windows didnít have to support the plethora of ancient hardware and software that it does, that it might actually be a leaner, better and possibly faster OS.

MS hasnít reworked the code base for so long, for fear that the trolls that on Pentium II's will come after them because it fails to boot and run successfully. Vista might be the first OS to buck this trend.

That being said, G3 support might well be in 10.5. I just wouldn't expect anything beyond that.

hawker
11th April 2006, 07:45 PM
No PPC support, are you crazy. That would cause an uproar...

I think I heard a wisper that 2010 will be the possible cut off date.

decryption
11th April 2006, 07:54 PM
I also heard that 10.5 will be Intel-only. I hope so, as I hate legacy support - I stay on the cutting edge for a reason :D

hawker
11th April 2006, 08:01 PM
decryption - you're full of it :P

Oh and decryption, I hate the company you work for. They were part of the plan to screw over UniMac at UNSW :angry: your bosses left a good mate of mine out of work :P

eroda
11th April 2006, 08:23 PM
10.5 wont be intel only
10.6 mayby
10.7 definatly
as its 2 years away , i think 2009 will be cutoff as they have xserves goign intel in 07 so late 09 /10 most realistic,

i said a firmware update being re requirement for 10.5 thats most realistic , a module required needs to be in the firmware, and only over firmware pgrade ofr machiens they want ie white g3 ibooks and up, g4 books, and all g3 towers as g3 towers still got lots of options since its a tower

Disko
11th April 2006, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by hawker@Apr 11 2006, 07:31 PM
Oh and decryption, I hate the company you work for. They were part of the plan to screw over UniMac at UNSW :angry: your bosses left a good mate of mine out of work :P
wtf has that got to do with: this thread
Mac OS X "Leopard" Apple's timeframe for PPC support
anything?

Like i've said in another thread somewhere: Get some frigging perspective.

applecollector
12th April 2006, 01:00 PM
I've come to notice that they are trying to get rid of the G4 line as well! :-( no emac and soon no iBook :-( or Powerbook!

gurgle
12th April 2006, 01:10 PM
um you only just noticed this???
dont you own a friggin intel mac?? what do you think it replaced??

applecollector
12th April 2006, 01:24 PM
Sorry i mean i haven't just noticed this i noticed it a long time ago it's just strange that apple are
making us suffer, why didn't they just replace the entire line with intel overnight and then sell the excess stock of the G4 line a little cheaper?
And Yes i do own an intel mac mini!

lavo
12th April 2006, 01:34 PM
Geeze, they're 6 months ahead of schedule as it is!

face facts - the G3 is dead in the water. No new software from Apple that runs on it NOW must give you a pretty good clue on the running specs for the next OS!

marc
12th April 2006, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by applecollector@Apr 12 2006, 01:24 PM
why didn't they just replace the entire line with intel overnight
For the same reason I can't do two year's worth of work in two months.

And reducing the price on G4 stock isn't of much benefit to Apple.

mechcon
12th April 2006, 01:38 PM
I wont bother getting an intel mac as it is stupid to upgrade a computer every 12-24 months, the average should be 3-5 years depending on what you do on it...

to buy a recently purchased g4/g5 then to sell it cos the intel macs are out is plain stupid in my opinion, dont want to see an uproar out of that.

10.5 will be universal, i've got my money on that. ppc support will probably cut off in 2009/2010 and there will be a (LARGER) percentage of mac owners running intel processors by then.

Wally
12th April 2006, 01:58 PM
Apple would know that people are still on PPC and Surely would provide the leopard upgrade.

They are going to have to support them in someway if they still plan on selling them at the apple store.

Quamen
12th April 2006, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by mechcon@Apr 12 2006, 01:38 PM
I wont bother getting an intel mac as it is stupid to upgrade a computer every 12-24 months, the average should be 3-5 years depending on what you do on it...
So you obviously aren't a heavy computer user then.

My 12" powerbook is getting close to 2 years old and it's feeling sluggish. I think 2-3 years is a better estimate for computer life.

3-5 years.... and you're dreaming. 5 years ago I was on an awesome P4 1.7Ghz with 256mb memory...and that was top of the line for it's day. That machine hasn't been used for 2 years by anyone in the house and was recently passed on to my grandmother who has decided to do a computer course.

mechcon
12th April 2006, 02:36 PM
im a very heavy computer user, its just i bought my powerbook 1.67ghz 11 months ago

downsys
12th April 2006, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by lavo@Apr 12 2006, 01:34 PM
Geeze, they're 6 months ahead of schedule as it is!

regarding this, i personally think it could have been a marketing gimic. Jobs publicly announce that they will only be ready in June but 'surprised' everyone by releasing them in January. so now he could brag 'hey, we're ahead of schedule', being the genius that he is.

to keep with this thread, they Leopard should at least support G4s. G3s, i agree, are getting a bit of age.

mechcon
12th April 2006, 03:30 PM
windows xp supports p2's, p3's and p4's, and all the current intels


makes sense

applecollector
12th April 2006, 03:51 PM
Well when leopard will be released as a Beta to Developers usually they update the Developer site just like they did before tiger came out and you could buy a boxed pre-release for $500 AUD when that comes out i'll straight away buy a copy and obviously by then we will know if it will run on G3's & G4's.
I'm not going to have a huge shock if they don't support the G3 processor because i have many other macs that will more then likely run Leopard.

timwallG5
12th April 2006, 04:08 PM
Yes... if you're a premium developer, that is...
Apple doesn't give away it's goodies just like that...
Did Apple give away Intel versions of Tiger for $500? No.

applecollector
12th April 2006, 04:12 PM
ummm no Tim!
You can buy it!
Why in the world would they give out a boxed copy of tiger for intel that would be totally pointless.

timwallG5
12th April 2006, 04:18 PM
I don't think they'll be giving it out for $500... you'd have to be an ADC Select member to recieve that honour. (Leopard isn't even mentioned in the ADC site yet. Where did you pull the idea of a pre-release this early on?)

nard
12th April 2006, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by timwallG5@Apr 12 2006, 04:18 PM
I don't think they'll be giving it out for $500... you'd have to be an ADC Select member to recieve that honour. (Leopard isn't even mentioned in the ADC site yet. Where did you pull the idea of a pre-release this early on?)
Where did he say "this early on?" I think he simply meant whenever Leopard is realesed to developers. Am I wrong?

applecollector
12th April 2006, 04:41 PM
Yes yes your right nard!
thats what i was thinking of.

oliyoung
12th April 2006, 05:01 PM
given the way my G3 iBook attempts to run Dashboard Widgets and Spotlight searches from 10.4, i'm personally not counting on running 10.5 on it ..

applecollector
12th April 2006, 05:13 PM
On the topic of New soiftware not working on the G3 some of it does,
I have iWeb Working on my G3 as well as iWork 06! and yes you are right whoever said that apple is slowly moving towards the G4,G5 & Intel line and getting rid of the G3 processor.

tommelbourne
12th April 2006, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by mechcon@Apr 12 2006, 04:30 PM
windows xp supports p2's, p3's and p4's, and all the current intels


makes sense
I hope that by 'makes sense' you mean that it makes sense that XP is so crap because it has to support so much legacy hardware!

As has been said before, Apple has to move on to bigger and better things software-wise, and as such can't keep on pandering to those who have hardware that is c.5 years old.

tommelbourne
12th April 2006, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by applecollector@Apr 12 2006, 06:13 PM
... and yes you are right whoever said that apple is slowly moving towards the G4,G5 & Intel line and getting rid of the G3 processor.
Whoooaaah, what a brilliant statement :P. Thanks applecollector for that amazing insight!

marc
12th April 2006, 05:28 PM
If you have a 5 year old mac, then you *might* have to use a 1 year old OS.

*shock-horror* :o