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morgan
5th April 2006, 11:11 PM
http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/

Apple has released a public beta of 'bootcamp'. Running Windows XP on an Macintel looks very easy now. No mucking around with clunky slipstreaming discs. I guess the Onmac project is a little defunct?

Kinda makes me wish I didn't buy my iMac G5 when I did..

iSlayer
5th April 2006, 11:14 PM
unbelievable
thats all i have to say :)

hawker
5th April 2006, 11:14 PM
Wow - good on you steve, lets support the enemy ;)

The Fluffy Duck
5th April 2006, 11:16 PM
Oh this is loverly. Apple making duel boot easy and pretty. Plus all the drivers. Should run nice and tight.

I never thought apple would make something like this. Maybe its part of there master plan........what ever that maybe.


looks like once its a full release you will have to pay for it. Funny thing is, everything done by apple will work perfectly including the instalatiion the burning of the cds. Then you start using xp :(

Ozi
5th April 2006, 11:16 PM
Awesome to see. :) Go Apple...

EDIT: chaps in IRC are currently installing the 83MB download, and so keep us posted on how it goes in this thread, guys! Love your work! B)

teej
5th April 2006, 11:16 PM
This is cool - it gives me some hope we'll see some Xen support in 10.5 which for me would mean I could get rid of a couple of PC's.

MacMatt
5th April 2006, 11:21 PM
Ummm, ... Ahhh, .... Huh!? ... I never, never thought I'ld see... Ahhh, .... What!?

I must say, interesting how Apple now have their own Windows logo. WOW!...

oliyoung
5th April 2006, 11:22 PM
Wow! Was this one of the surprises His Steveness was talking about ?

Downloading right now :D ..

I love all the subtle sarcasm

"Sadly, Windows XP, and even the upcoming Vista, are stuck in the 1980s with old-fashioned BIOS. But with Boot Camp, the Mac can operate smoothly in both centuries."
"A printer for the instructions (You’ll want to print them before installing Windows, really.)"
"Don’t forget to install Apple software available for the Windows platform. "
"That means it’ll be subject to the same attacks that plague the Windows world"

BiRDBRAiN
5th April 2006, 11:26 PM
All I could say is WTF??!!

LOL they've done it for us :lol:

Steve pulls another one out of the hat!

McMullet
5th April 2006, 11:28 PM
Seeing Windows on a Mac just doesn't feel right. I know it has it's advantages for developers and businesses, but I still think it's quite sad.

cosmichobo
5th April 2006, 11:28 PM
Keep my friends close and my enemies closer..?

We did have Windows booting Macs back in the 90's, though of course that was very different to this. I wonder how long til there's the chance of hot-swapping the OSes...

Also wonder how stable XP will actually be on an Intel Mac.

I am so wishing I had the funds to buy a new Mac now... oh well, give it time...

Phillip
5th April 2006, 11:29 PM
Brilliant. Just Brilliant. :D

OziMac
5th April 2006, 11:31 PM
Awesome - looks like its time to switch (to an Intel Mac). :)

Looking forward to hearing the first of the gaming stories from those lucky few who can test it out right now.

serdar
5th April 2006, 11:32 PM
I'm surprised that this wasn't brought out with a larger announcement, not even a link on apple homepage. Leaked? Still going to grab the bits of course :)

morgan
5th April 2006, 11:33 PM
What does this mean for MacOSX native software? Where is the incentive for software developers to port their software over?

MacMatt
5th April 2006, 11:34 PM
Now asking a question, which will be flogged to death over the coming years....

Is the MAC OS X in any danger here?

mechcon
5th April 2006, 11:38 PM
no because not all mac users will have an intel-based mac :P

The Fluffy Duck
5th April 2006, 11:40 PM
Now asking a question, which will be flogged to death over the coming years....

Is the MAC OS X in any danger here?

Good point. I still think apple will market thiers as better .


"Ours is so good blah blah and if your stuck in the past you have the ability to run windows making the whole mac experiance so much better blah blah"

serdar
5th April 2006, 11:42 PM
I don't think so, but of course time will tell. I enjoy using Mac OS as I believe I am much more productive in it, and this from someone who has been using Windows since Win30.

There's plenty of things going for Mac OS, the usability of the UI for starters. XP is good, and it'll be difficult to get the corporate buy-in into Mac OS, but with the release of bootcamp I believe that there's one less hurdle now.

Graham
5th April 2006, 11:43 PM
I'd still prefer a virtualisation approach. Is this the first time Apple have actually released a beta software product (apart from the unfinished products of years gone by)?

mechcon
5th April 2006, 11:45 PM
so this is it... every day or 2 apple will release something exciting for all of april... looks like the pattern so far, firstly 10.4.6, now this? amazing!

Rayd
5th April 2006, 11:46 PM
dam, makes me want a intel mac all the more :| games... games...games... plus its not exactly windows XP.. apple have there own logo :P

fiark
5th April 2006, 11:46 PM
*deleted*

yitzyf
5th April 2006, 11:46 PM
Another big question - can this be done from an external drive? But apart from that....wow.....

And how long till "Fast OS switching?"

SuitCase
5th April 2006, 11:46 PM
http://img.soaringrabbit.com/firmware.jpg
OMG!!! FIRMWARE INSTALLER FOR IMAC!!!

I probably won't be the first to install XP via Boot Camp, but here's a taste of the exciting progress bars to come.

jerrah
5th April 2006, 11:49 PM
I'm blown away that apple have released this... Well I'm downloading it and installing it now it's released by apple, I don't think it will stop me using my macbook mostly for macstuff though...

Oh well.

So - driver support is all done in the new bootcamp? I wonder when 10.5 will be out...

nicwithsticks
5th April 2006, 11:51 PM
I am intrigued to find out how this all goes. will apple have ioncluded drivers for the iSight, backlight keyboards and Fan and power management?

As I seem to remember, all these were missing from previous attempts to boot XP on Mac's.

gurgle
5th April 2006, 11:52 PM
this is massive
apple's windows logo looks kinda weird but

ha i only just *got* the name just then..

edit: ok so this is a public beta.. how much are they gonna change/add to it for the release??

spose we'll hafta see how buggy it is..

although i spose everythings beta these days, apples just trying to fit in with the web 2.0 crowd :D

Ozi
5th April 2006, 11:56 PM
Apple Press release: http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html

There are also official images of the install process at the above link. :)

Buthidae
5th April 2006, 11:58 PM
Holy bananas! I need to get me an Intel Mac quick-smart! :D

*starts saving pennies for a Rev. B MacBook Pro*

takumi
6th April 2006, 12:00 AM
I find this really quite funny but also feel so much for the people that RAN THE COMPETITION they put 13k in for something apple released for FREE, and just two days after all the effort they put into setting up the sourceforge page!

ford.boy
6th April 2006, 12:02 AM
oookkk... here's the big question:

I need a new computer that runs windows. I think you can guess the rest.

Hyper PC or an imac... or wait for an intel powermac?

serdar
6th April 2006, 12:03 AM
yeah they'd feel a bit crap about it i guess, but the 13K was raised from donations so the crappy feeling (if any) will be distributed :)

yinyang
6th April 2006, 12:09 AM
a very interesting turn of events!!

not sure if this will prompt me to get that MBP sooner rather than later......!

still not sure if i really need to have Windows on my Mac!

fiark
6th April 2006, 12:12 AM
*deleted*

spargo
6th April 2006, 12:18 AM
This is simply brilliant! The timing, the purpose, everything.. Well done Apple, this is an absolute masterstroke.

It is all over the technology sections of mainstream UK and US media today - people will really be talking about this.

So that's it then, with an Intel-powered MacBook Pro I'll be able to run OSX to maintain productivity in my day to day tasks, and then switch to WinXX to use some essential specialised apps like MapInfo etc.


Excellent.

takumi
6th April 2006, 12:19 AM
It just a hilarious turn of events, i love apple and i still don't even have one, its coming tomorrow!
e.g.

"Word to the Wise

Windows running on a Mac is like Windows running on a PC. That means it’ll be subject to the same attacks that plague the Windows world."

AND

"Boot Camp will burn a CD of all the required drivers for Windows so you don't have to scrounge around the Internet looking for them."

haha poor early hack adopters had to do this AND now have to reinstall everything to work bootcamp :P

mechcon
6th April 2006, 12:23 AM
If i had a windows pc here? It'd be only to use Fruity Loops.. other than that? I switched to a mac for a reason, and im not going back to windows!!!

and if i was still a pc gamer, i'd give a toss, but really? Im sticking with osx (even if i had an intel mac, i'd stick with osx... except my work imac) ;)

Disko
6th April 2006, 12:24 AM
Yay - now i can install xbox os (windows) onto my imac!

I can finally get back into the swing of grand theft auto! :D

namco
6th April 2006, 12:25 AM
ok just ran it, and updated the firmware.
Got up to the step where it paritions your HDD and after abotu 10mins, a message pops up telling me it cant move data from my mac osx parition so it cant continue with the installation process, it advised me to backup all my stuff, restore the mac mini and run boot camp again.

anyone get this message?

jerrah
6th April 2006, 12:31 AM
I'm going to try the install tonight, but I've got to copy a bunch of stuff off my hdd first... Even with a firewire raid backing up 80Gb data takes a while. :(

Ozi
6th April 2006, 12:31 AM
I want to see FPS for some benchmark games running using Bootcamp. Thats the killer for me: I finally want to use a beautiful, well designed and fast machine to run counter strike. Thats all I want. Its an old game, but its been a dream. :) Also, PC only games like Oblivion, if they ran at speed, would be a huge bonus. :D

jerrah
6th April 2006, 12:34 AM
If any luck I'll test it tommorrow night Ozi, but I daresay someone will beat me to it!

Ozi
6th April 2006, 12:39 AM
That would be great. For many Apple users, gaming is going to be the main benefit for installing Bootcamp. Apple excels at almost everything else, but has never been up to par on gaming. I know its a little thing, but it would be superb if we are now able to run games natively, with drivers for GPUs and framerates which are not hobbled by crappy ports from PC to OSX like in Halo, and countless other games. :rolleyes:

Thanks jerrah.

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 12:50 AM
im about to give it a shot.
had to re-install everything because id used the previous xp-on-mac solution.the 2 dont play together

bring on gta3 :)

ill post again when i have it running

The Fluffy Duck
6th April 2006, 12:56 AM
so.........how u unistall it?

mac_man_luke
6th April 2006, 12:57 AM
Hurry up 12/13" Intel Laptop! i want one real bad now if gaming is decent!

gurgle
6th April 2006, 01:04 AM
check it out - from TUAW

Here's what won't work in Windows on your Intel Mac:
iSight
Apple Remote
Apple USB modem
keyboard backlighting on the MacBook Pro

wonder if they'll end up getting these to work for the 10.5 release

bennettnz
6th April 2006, 01:08 AM
This is a massive move on Apples part - is it finally a push into the business world? There's already that bank story about swapping all their PC's to macs... and schools can now teach in both platforms (plus others) all on one piece of hardware which will really suit their budgets in a big way! I doubt that this is as simple as it looks... there are larger strategies in play but with this move who can posibly predict what's next? This may remove a lot of barriers to markets which steadfastly ignored the mac beforehand. Imagine what this means to companies like DELL, I would be extremely worried if I was them, all it takes now is some competitive pricing on Mac hardware and DELL and the big boys may find themselves out in the cold selling a "closed " system.

I wonder - could an ipod drive be partitioned to run on both windows and OSX - although I cann't see a good reason for doing it - just out of curiosity.

Alternative Universe prediction: Windows becomes the number one OS for the Mac, Apple then release Leopard for the PC and Leopard wipes out Microsoft, Apple remove the ability to run Windows from macs - doesn't matter because nobody misses it and we all live happily ever after.

jerrah
6th April 2006, 01:09 AM
Oooh, sounds like an install-off...

My backups are nearly finished, sounds like I'll have to up my install schedule. To hell with work. :)

forgie
6th April 2006, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by morgan@Apr 5 2006, 11:33 PM
What does this mean for MacOSX native software? Where is the incentive for software developers to port their software over?
I think this is more strategic then functional. Games are the exception. The only software it'll stop people porting over is games. Most of them won't be doing that anyway, since MS are doing their best to lock the rest of the world out of the PC gaming world with DirectX 10. Now you can have a mac, and play the latest games!

Dual-boot isn't that great if you want to actively use software for different platforms on one computer.

This is however, great news since it means Apple is being open minded about their Intel transition. Rightly or wrongly, they are giving the power to the people. It's a great day for mac users. Now if only Apple would licence FairPlay, then I would actually respect Apple's contributions to the information age. As it currently stands, Apple are playing the Microsoft of the digital music world (with one major exception, Apple got to the top by being the best, not by bullying everyone else out of their market ;)).

This whole thing makes buying an Intel mini seem like a brilliant buying decision. If I get an iMac or PowerMactel down the track, I can dual boot my mini as a windows system should I need to. Fantastic!

Kudos to Apple!

bennettnz
6th April 2006, 01:13 AM
I guess the french will love it. After all no one misses out in this lovely socialist scenario.

forgie
6th April 2006, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by bennettnz@Apr 6 2006, 01:13 AM
I guess the french will love it. After all no one misses out in this lovely socialist scenario.
Move to the US. Anti-socialist ideals are better received there! :P

bennettnz
6th April 2006, 01:18 AM
Anti-everything is better received there but not anti-windows so it seems... next someone will try and tell us the polar ice caps are melting...

namco
6th April 2006, 01:23 AM
Hey guys, Im back, turns out all i needed to do was repair permissions and it worked.

Im acutally using windows on my mac mini intel RIGHT NOW.

For those asking, it comes with the intel graphics drivers and has the intel graphics panel and everything too. Gonna try a game on it and see wat happens.

The driver CD that boot camp makes you create autoloads once insterted and runs a windows installer type setup to install all the drivers. After a reboot, my 24" dell booted up at 1920x1200 straight away and everything was detected (blutooth, airport etc.). THe only thing that seems to be out of place is that audio only comes from the built in speaker in my mac mini (even with the speakers plugged in).

Off to play with it some more... =)

forgie
6th April 2006, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by bennettnz
Anti-everything is better received there but not anti-windows so it seems... next someone will try and tell us the polar ice caps are melting...They're not melting, they're just moving closer to the US, like everyone else who is trying to grab a slice of their glorious freedom. "We must attack the freedom grabbers!" (fancy name for non Americans)

Seriously though.... it's interesting to see Apples positive attitude towards windows (as long as it's making money selling hardware) but negative attitude towards opening FairPlay. In the OS stakes, Apple are trying to gain a hold in the market, whereas in the DRM stakes, Apple is trying to hold on to their market dominance.

jerrah
6th April 2006, 01:28 AM
Nice to hear Namco.

Ccc is taking sooooo long. :( I might just go to bed.

gurgle
6th April 2006, 01:29 AM
switch campaign version 2.0 (http://wsidecar.apple.com/cgi-bin/tafii/nph-taf2/?number=6382) (well.. kinda)

weird url though..

ps namco post pix plz!!

bennettnz
6th April 2006, 01:30 AM
Yip I can see both sides of the arguement for opening up Fairplay - I think in the end it will happen but Steve will be in no rush... maybe it's a second masterstroke he has up his sleeve to get the movie comapnies on board itunes by releasing Fairplay to other hardware makers?

namco
6th April 2006, 01:33 AM
What pics do you need? since the windows install process is not very exciting and windows looks exactly like any other windows.

Tell what pics you need and ill try get them for you.

SuitCase
6th April 2006, 01:41 AM
To be honest a Mac mini running Windows isn't very exciting, the graphics already worked with Blanka's solution. The iMacs and MacBook Pros are the ones that will really benefit from this - proper graphics drivers, and hence games. I'm currently all set up with a Windows partition now.. just waiting to get a copy of XP with SP2.

downsys
6th April 2006, 01:42 AM
well now, can apple meet their future demands or will there be longer waiting periods for us to get macs? i remember waiting for a month for my ibook 2 years back.

great move though. can't wait for leopard.

jerrah
6th April 2006, 01:48 AM
I'm also eagerly awaiting leopard...

Suitcase I have my XP SP2 disc here, just waiting for my backups to finish argh....

(I'm very impatient)...

namco
6th April 2006, 01:48 AM
Here is a screenshot with some windows that i thought you guys might want to see.
But as SuitCase already stated, its not that interesting on a macmini intel.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1957/screenshot0014jd.th.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot0014jd.jpg)

downsys
6th April 2006, 02:12 AM
u've got 2gigs of ram :'(...i want one of themmm machines... :P

namco
6th April 2006, 02:21 AM
Oh yeah, i should mention that my machine is:
Mac Mini Intel CD 1.66/2GB RAM/80GB HDD/Superdrive/airport/blutooth etc...

Running on a Dell 24" LCD

elSpike
6th April 2006, 02:22 AM
Sweet. I have installed bootcamp and partitioned disk on my Macbook, but xp disk is at work so will have to wait for the morning. Will post framerates for CS source as soon as possible ;-)

That's what we want to know isnt it?

elSpike out.

knassy
6th April 2006, 02:42 AM
This is the final straw. I'm going to sell a kidney and get me a new Mac!

Johnny Appleseed
6th April 2006, 02:56 AM
I doubt existing Mac developers will abandon the platform. But I've abandoned all hope of e-tax for Mac!

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 03:03 AM
well as usual apple have made things work so easily

And yes there is full hardware acceleration.
So bring on gaming(just relived the old days with a quick game of Soldier of Fortune :) )

Only issue ive found so far is i cant get headphones to work on my iMac.only the internal speakers will work

MacNut
6th April 2006, 06:35 AM
I never thought I would see the day Apple did all that work just to give us Windows. Love it. Downloading now but will do a clean install of OSX first and backup .... just n case :P

Good going guys :D

scruffie
6th April 2006, 06:51 AM
Wow - i'm not sure whether i should be happy or sad.
Hmm... oh well, let the gaming begin! :P

stevejay
6th April 2006, 07:00 AM
I played around with dual boot Debian on my ancient 7600 about 3 years ago, and it became the reason I gave the old girl to a friend. I had the eMac for day to day, and dual boot was a royal pain in the arse - the machine was never running in the OS I wanted when I came to it, and sharing data between the OSs was frustrating when it worked.

Now I know puters have come a long way since, but having to reboot between OSs is a 1990s solution. If Apple really want to impress, they should put their weight behind Wine (probably with a limit on it that prevents running doze software that's a newer version than the version of Wine installed to keep developers supporting Mac OS) and hit Macroslop where it hurts - in sales of Windows licences.

Still, Intel Macs will sell to switchers like hotcakes - that's got to be good for the longterm faithful

decryption
6th April 2006, 07:10 AM
Absolutley insane. I never would have thought this would happen. Just, wow.

ruegen
6th April 2006, 07:14 AM
ok... I think I can start using words now...



... no I was wrong.... :blink:

jerrah
6th April 2006, 07:26 AM
Wasn't someone going to eat a hat?

waynie
6th April 2006, 07:37 AM
Wow. Is it still April 1st?!?!?

Well, I need to upgrade both my Mac and Windows desktops this year, guess I can spend the money I've saved on a more powerful Mac now :D

Muzza_77
6th April 2006, 07:54 AM
Finally I can do everything my friends can do. hehehehehhe...

...now all I have to do is the intel imac......like that will ever happen in the near future <_<

timwallG5
6th April 2006, 07:56 AM
First there was Intel chips, and now it&#39;s Windows... next they&#39;ll sell beige PC boxes and stick an ugly version of the Apple logo on it, and sell it for &#036;800 next to a Dell monitor...

I mean, If you go to the Mac, you should be prepared to leave the Redmond evil in the back of the closet...

dangelovich
6th April 2006, 07:57 AM
Awesome. And fantastic timing&#33; My MacBook Pro arrived 2 days ago :D

hawker
6th April 2006, 08:00 AM
Apple mose well discontinue support of Mac OS X and just boot Windows, it seems as though everyone wants to run Windows instead of Mac OS X....

timothy
6th April 2006, 08:03 AM
“Apple has no desire or plan to sell or support Windows, but many customers have expressed their interest to run Windows on Apple’s superior hardware now that we use Intel processors,” said Philip Schiller, Apple’s senior vice president of Worldwide Product Marketing. “We think Boot Camp makes the Mac even more appealing to Windows users considering making the switch.”
apple.com (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html)

benny gsr
6th April 2006, 08:05 AM
I don&#39;t really need to integrate with windows, but will this as mentioned previously, mean that in the future, a whole lot of software suddenly won&#39;t be made available on Mac, Eg. MYOB ?

The benefits are obviously massive with respect to selling A LOT more hardware, but are people who don&#39;t want to use windows going to suffer ? :unsure:

timwallG5
6th April 2006, 08:07 AM
Why don&#39;t they just stick a start menu into Leopard and call it "Windows Evolved"?
Just turn the close, minimise and zoom buttons onto the right side, change the icons into crappy little Windows ones...

Or maybe just have a "Start Windows" button inside the Finder menu...

Maybe 10.6 will have a giant "Apple - official partner of Microsoft" label stuck on it...


Apple are going down the wrong path here...

timothy
6th April 2006, 08:17 AM
i like the "no support" comment, implying psycho-therapy is needed for windows on mac. it would be complex and disturbing for users.

c3017474
6th April 2006, 08:18 AM
I can see the benefit for those users who need specialised software that has a small market on PCs and thus there is no chance it would ever make it to the Mac platform. This would encourage those people to buy a Mac and use Windows just for those apps.

However, it does concern me that some switchers might just end up using Windows and eventually Apple would cease development of OS X. I would have preferred to see Apple license OS X to Dell than put Windows on Macs.

hawker
6th April 2006, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by timwallG5@Apr 6 2006, 07:37 AM
Maybe 10.6 will have a giant "Apple - official partner of Microsoft" label stuck on it...

Apple are going down the wrong path here...
Yeah, then it&#39;s only one step to getting one of those "Designed for Windows XP"


I can see the benefit for those users who need specialised software that has a small market on PCs and thus there is no chance it would ever make it to the Mac platform. This would encourage those people to buy a Mac and use Windows just for those apps.

Actually, I think its more for the idiots out there, so they can say "hey you can boot windows on a mac" so why not buy a mac. If Steve is going to sell ten thousand more macs just for people who want to boot windows, do you think he&#39;d say no? Smart marketing plan, but still, death to Windows I say. Substandard operating systems have no place in computers these days&#33;

new2mac
6th April 2006, 08:19 AM
Wow&#33; Wow&#33; Wow&#33;
I love Apple&#33;

What other company changes the face of the World as often?

Love it. Now I can really change my business machines over.

Thank you Apple :D

ps. do you think we&#39;ll get hot switching? That would rock.

Exocet
6th April 2006, 08:24 AM
Wow hawker, you seem way bitter about this. I have a derelict old Windows PC that sits in a room doing nothing but wait for me to play games on it. I&#39;d much rather have Windows and Mac on the same box so I can game with the one machine rather than maintain the shitbox that sits in a dark corner. If it screws up? I can just nuke the install and no harm is done to my Mac partition.

hawker
6th April 2006, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Exocet@Apr 6 2006, 07:54 AM
Wow hawker, you seem way bitter about this.
You think :blink:

I just think its silly, I&#39;m all about denying Windows exists, I say boot up Mac OS X and Linux - Windows has no place. fuck gaming, if you want to game buy an xBox or PlayStation and sit in front of your tv ;)

If you can&#39;t find a mac or linux alternative to a windows program, then it&#39;s probably not worth having.

Graham
6th April 2006, 08:39 AM
This is going to be huge in the education market. Forget all about having to choose between different platforms as you can now have both for the same price as one.

Also, the first BSOD :) http://www.tuaw.com/2006/04/05/blue-screen...ath-on-an-imac/ (http://www.tuaw.com/2006/04/05/blue-screen-of-death-on-an-imac/)

chrism238
6th April 2006, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by timwallG5@Apr 6 2006, 06:07 AM
Apple are going down the wrong path here...
This is the 30th anniversary product I was waiting for? :angry:

For now, the only path being taken by Apple is one to sell more Apple hardware, and to reduce the number of Windows-wanna-bes corrupting their Apple software (and firmware?) after trying a 3rd-party Windows booting scheme.

There&#39;s a small number of older Windows attacks that try to find things on unmounted disk partitions (such as when one has Linux ext2 on the same machine). I wonder how long it&#39;ll be before we see a virus to locate OSX on an unmounted partition, and corrupt sensitive OSX files?

We also saw a small campaign by Linux users, five years ago, when they successfully demanded that they should not have to pay for a Windows OEM licence fee when only installing Linux on their new Intel machines. I wonder if we&#39;ll see a campaign by Windows users not wishing to pay the OSX licence fee? Apple now admit, and support, the use of Windows on their hardware, and Apple hardware without the &#036;100+ OSX tax is even more attractive (but not to me&#33;).

Exocet
6th April 2006, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by hawker@Apr 6 2006, 08:28 AM
You think :blink:

I just think its silly, I&#39;m all about denying Windows exists, I say boot up Mac OS X and Linux - Windows has no place. fuck gaming, if you want to game buy an xBox or PlayStation and sit in front of your tv ;)

If you can&#39;t find a mac or linux alternative to a windows program, then it&#39;s probably not worth having.
Ok, find me Battlefield 2 on XBox and I&#39;ll buy an X-Box, and I don&#39;t mean that Modern Combat bullshit. The fact is that there is no other alternative for me other than to run Windows. If I can do it on the one machine all the better. I don&#39;t use Windows for desktop use, I use it for games.

Pretending that programs aren&#39;t worth having if they don&#39;t have a Mac/Linux port is pure idiocy. Plain and simple.

titan44
6th April 2006, 08:46 AM
Massive, Massive Massive.

In one single stroke, Apples fires at cannon at Microsoft, Dell, and a bunch of other hardware vendors, genius. Steve sure knows how to pick a fight.

ruegen
6th April 2006, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by jerrah@Apr 6 2006, 07:26 AM
Wasn&#39;t someone going to eat a hat?
That was for April 1st.

And where are the photos?

hawker
6th April 2006, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Exocet@Apr 6 2006, 08:16 AM
Ok, find me Battlefield 2 on XBox and I&#39;ll buy an X-Box, and I don&#39;t mean that Modern Combat bullshit. The fact is that there is no other alternative for me other than to run Windows. If I can do it on the one machine all the better. I don&#39;t use Windows for desktop use, I use it for games.

Pretending that programs aren&#39;t worth having if they don&#39;t have a Mac/Linux port is pure idiocy. Plain and simple.
Good for you&#33; Go get a bloody PC then...

Mac = Mac OS X / Linux
PC = Windows / Linux

cgollner
6th April 2006, 08:52 AM
To consider a big possible picture.
Intel Mac now can run Windows and bring Windows users on Mac hardware. For Apple, more people buying Mac hardware.
Down the track boot camp changes and now you have virtualisation that allows you to run windows apps in OSX. Even more people buying Mac hardware.

But, will developers really be bothered to port or write for OSX when it Windows support is just a click away. More hardware might sell but I think the Mac software area will suffer greatly for it.

Why can&#39;t Windows just GO AWAY.(not a question).

Exocet
6th April 2006, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by hawker
Good for you&#33; Go get a bloody PC then...

Mac = Mac OS X / Linux
PC = Windows / Linux
Or how about you chill the hell out. Elitist dogma isn&#39;t helping anybody and its certainly not assisting your case. I don&#39;t want a PC. Why should I bother buying two machines when I can do it with one? Give me one good reason other than "OMG U JUST SHUDNT&#33; IT AGAINST LAWS OF MAN, NATURE AND FYSICS&#33;&#33;&#33;"

And before you fly of the handle, that&#39;s exactly how you&#39;re sounding.

hawker
6th April 2006, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by Exocet@Apr 6 2006, 08:25 AM
Or how about you chill the hell out. Elitist dogma isn&#39;t helping anybody and its certainly not assisting your case. I don&#39;t want a PC. Why should I bother buying two machines when I can do it with one? Give me one good reason other than "OMG U JUST SHUDNT&#33; IT AGAINST LAWS OF MAN, NATURE AND FYSICS&#33;&#33;&#33;"

And before you fly of the handle, that&#39;s exactly how you&#39;re sounding.
Oh I&#39;m sorry. I must be an &#39;idiot&#39; like you said....

paulharrop
6th April 2006, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by cgollner@Apr 6 2006, 08:52 AM
But, will developers really be bothered to port or write for OSX when it Windows support is just a click away. More hardware might sell but I think the Mac software area will suffer greatly for it.
My sentiments exactly. Macs may just become another PC box - except beautiful to look at.

lavo
6th April 2006, 08:57 AM
Don&#39;t forget folks - *its a beta*. Who says this is going to be how the final version works. I think it works a few ways:

1) Toe in the water exercise. Apple can gauge how many people will switch to Macs if they can run some of their Windows software on the new machine.

2) People can finally make proper comparisons between Windows and OS X on the same hardware. No more excuses why this or that doesn&#39;t work, so you can&#39;t really compare. Once trying out both, you will plainly see how much better OS X is than Windows.

3) This is the first shot fired at Vista. Word is out on the PC side of things that a lot of people aren&#39;t going to upgrade straight away, so why not lock them in now to a clearly better OS on Apple&#39;s hardware, but still let them use their Windows apps *until native OSX ones are available*
(Can anybody think of a certain Adobe product that will benefit from this??)

4) Relax Hawker&#33; Do you really think Apple wouldn&#39;t have put any thought into this? There must be a big reason for them to release this software, as I would imagine it would have taken a lot of courage to make this decision.

hawker
6th April 2006, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by lavo@Apr 6 2006, 08:27 AM
4) Relax Hawker&#33; Do you really think Apple wouldn&#39;t have put any thought into this? There must be a big reason for them to release this software, as I would imagine it would have taken a lot of courage to make this decision.
Good points - its suss that they&#39;re supporting the boot of Windows - why don&#39;t they just come up with software like VMware - that way Mac OS X has a market place - otherwise, as was said by cgollner and currently MacMate in IRC - this is bad for Mac OS X&#33;

Exocet
6th April 2006, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by hawker@Apr 6 2006, 08:56 AM
Oh I&#39;m sorry. I must be an &#39;idiot&#39; like you said....
No, I said that the concept of maintaining two machines instead where one can suffice is idocy - not that you&#39;re an idiot.

hawker
6th April 2006, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Exocet@Apr 6 2006, 08:30 AM
No, I said that the concept of maintaining two machines instead where one can suffice is idocy - not that you&#39;re an idiot.
My point still remains, I understand the need for windows, I don&#39;t believe in it, and avoid its use at all costs. my concept was noted in IRC and just above. that why aren&#39;t they looking at VMware or something - instead of fully booting Windows?

Quasar
6th April 2006, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by lavo@Apr 6 2006, 08:57 AM
3) This is the first shot fired at Vista. Word is out on the PC side of things that a lot of people aren&#39;t going to upgrade straight away, so why not lock them in now to a clearly better OS on Apple&#39;s hardware, but still let them use their Windows apps *until native OSX ones are available*
(Can anybody think of a certain Adobe product that will benefit from this??)

It certainly would solve Adobes problems. Now they can just make one version and tell people to run windows on their Macs.

I have to admit I feel kind of sorry for all the Aspyr employees. Their customers are groing to dry up fairly quickly I imagine.

mechcon
6th April 2006, 09:13 AM
I rather put my money towards Darwine. I rather not use windows, but in fact use windows apps in osx natively. plus it has potential for PPC AND INTEL.

There&#39;s alot I agree with Hawker, but I used to be a pc gamer, till i got bored of it, now my niche is writing music, Im sticking with PPC as long as possible as all music apps work on it. (of course I&#39;ve got an xbox, and use that for gaming when i have the spare time or need to unwind from work or music)

When my 3-4 years is due for an upgrade, I&#39;ll (have no choice but to) get an intel mac of sorts. Till then? let the beta testers have their fun :D my time to change isn&#39;t yet (i only got my powerbook 12 f**king months ago)

But if people want to play games? and have the need to use windows apps? GOOD&#33;

But if the market will not bother with universal applications or shorten the support for PPC owners because of this stunt? i&#39;ll be royally pissed off, and I will make some f**king noise&#33;&#33;

nbetts
6th April 2006, 09:14 AM
Well we have a 20" imac and then beside that sits a Windoze tower for my partner thats a lovely Blue/Grey thing the size of a suitcase that sounds like a small aeroplane in the room wtih a constantly whirring fan.

This now enables us to donate that to some poor people who cant afford a computer and replace it with a mini, stream Video to the Xbox, send music through iTunes, download Movies (legally for those that wont support apple), Connect wirelessly to the topfield and update everyday with a 7day EPG, connect to the home Cbus system that wont support apple and generally pretty up the room :lol:

thebag
6th April 2006, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by hawker@Apr 6 2006, 08:59 AM
Good points - its suss that they&#39;re supporting the boot of Windows - why don&#39;t they just come up with software like VMware - that way Mac OS X has a market place - otherwise, as was said by cgollner and currently MacMate in IRC - this is bad for Mac OS X&#33;
As one who has zero interest in running anything windows, I don&#39;t see how this is bad for OSX.

Bootcamp will be an integral part of "Leopard", so you can&#39;t have Windows on a Mac without OSX. What Apple have seem to have done to me is basically gotten rid of the need to have VPC and other third party emulation software. and in doing so potentially increased their market share for those who want the best of both worlds. Which can be a good thing, greater volume more reasonbly priced machines.

It remains to be seen about Virii and other trojan apps, although as Macs became more popular, these things probably would have become more prevalent anyway. People hacked macs to make windows work, how soon before the same effort was applied to create virii and crack the seemingly invincible OSX.

At the end of the day it comes down to choice, those who wish to use both OSX and Windows and those of us who don&#39;t. At least the option is now there(created by the people who design and manufacture the software and the machines - better than by some guy in his back garage)

I don&#39;t have a choice at this time, I still have a G4(so no Windows for me), and not being into games I don&#39;t ever see a need(everything I do, I do better with my Mac)

Just some thoughts

Mark

chrissara
6th April 2006, 09:16 AM
Methinks Apple have planned a method similar to this:

- long term plan is how to get people to buy Apples and use OSX or whatever variant the Apple OS is in the future

- to do this they reach over into the MS and Intel arena. They have OSX run on Intels and suggest the possibilty of MS running on it. Apple have been working on this and the ability to dual-boot for some time but keep it quiet.

- Apple release &#39;beta&#39; software to enable dual-boot. Eventually people can dual boot between the OS&#39;es

- Programmers find they can "program"easier and have their programs operate better/more seamlessly on OSX than MS.

- programmers start to program more for OSX than MS

- Apple programs become more prevalent than MS, and soon OSX is the key OS in the market.

Note this is only a view of what Apple may be looking at doing. It may not be achievable due to various factors - fundamentally Apple having a strong control over their hardware for one. How many Macs can be upgraded using generic parts e.g. video cards, CPU&#39;s etc as opposed to wintels (this may of course be a deliberate quality control on Apple&#39;s behalf though)

fiark
6th April 2006, 09:16 AM
*deleted*

benny gsr
6th April 2006, 09:16 AM
Hawker, while in the short term it may hit OSX, like lavo said, Apple have put a lot of thought into this:

Could it perhaps be the windows killer ?

1. Bring PC users to Mac, increase hardware share...... temporarily lose developers for osx.
2. Keep OSX going strong so more and more people realise how ordinary windows is.
3. Further hardware share increases,
4. Apple bump up marketing in OSX, and Windows starts losing marketshare,
5. More developers return, or newly delve into OSX
6. Windows dies a slow death, and Microsoft are now known only for Office and crappy machines made years ago &#33; :P

Exocet
6th April 2006, 09:21 AM
The point remains though hawker, even if they did take the VMWare path - what incentive is there for people to program for OS X if they can just program in Windows and know that OS X users can instantly run the programs? Windows on Mac will hurt developers either way, and personally I feel that dual-boot will do less damage.

pipsqeek
6th April 2006, 09:21 AM
Viruses on a *Mac. :)

*Notice I said Mac, not OS X

mechcon
6th April 2006, 09:28 AM
Yeah true pipsqueek, but with this whole hype, they might make viruses for osx too... MIGHT.....

*sasrcasm*but they&#39;ll have to make it universal binary*sarcasm* :P

marc
6th April 2006, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by benny gsr@Apr 6 2006, 09:16 AM
Hawker, while in the short term it may hit OSX, like lavo said, Apple have put a lot of thought into this:

Could it perhaps be the windows killer ?

1. Bring PC users to Mac, increase hardware share...... temporarily lose developers for osx.
2. Keep OSX going strong so more and more people realise how ordinary windows is.
3. Further hardware share increases,
4. Apple bump up marketing in OSX, and Windows starts losing marketshare,
5. More developers return, or newly delve into OSX
6. Windows dies a slow death, and Microsoft are now known only for Office and crappy machines made years ago &#33; :P
I think this might be the plan.

We all know that dual booting or even virtualization isn&#39;t anywhere near as good as running a native OS X application. And because of that, I can&#39;t see many developers dropping OS X support.

Games might be the exception though.

luke_in_tas
6th April 2006, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Exocet@Apr 6 2006, 10:21 AM
The point remains though hawker, even if they did take the VMWare path - what incentive is there for people to program for OS X if they can just program in Windows and know that OS X users can instantly run the programs? Windows on Mac will hurt developers either way, and personally I feel that dual-boot will do less damage.
I agree. Being able to run Windows at near native speeds inside a virtual machine would be much more damaging to OS X software development than dual booting will be. Dual booting is a pain, which I think means most current Mac developers will continue to develop for OS X.

I think this is a good move. It is going to make many gamers very happy. But there is certainly some risk involved regarding OS X software development. I just hope it is one that isn&#39;t realised. (I&#39;m personally still waiting for a good VM solution for the Intel Macs though. It&#39;ll suit me better than dual booting.)

I wonder thought—did Apple wait to release this until after they signed that 5-year agreement with Microsoft that requires Microsoft to continue to develop Office for OS X?

Edit: spelling

larfinboy
6th April 2006, 09:40 AM
So do we have any FPS for the iMac running Windows XP ?

I&#39;m very interested in the possibility of playing BF2 or DoD:S on a Mac running Windows.

My PeeCee is purely for gaming and it kills me that I want to spend money on high-end video cards for both Motion on the Mac and gaming on the PeeCee.

Any updates on when the new Intel Pro Desktop machines will be out ?

takumi
6th April 2006, 09:41 AM
If there is to be migration its not going to start with developers it will start with users, developers won&#39;t simply change to OS X because it better, they want to make sure there&#39;s money

feeze
6th April 2006, 09:43 AM
*cough* Yellow Box *cough*

Like others have said, methinks Apple has a bigger plan here. This is just a tantalising glimpse into Apple&#39;s future ambitions and strategy :)

NORMANDY
6th April 2006, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by marc@Apr 6 2006, 09:31 AM
I think this might be the plan.

We all know that dual booting or even virtualization isn&#39;t anywhere near as good as running a native OS X application. And because of that, I can&#39;t see many developers dropping OS X support.

Games might be the exception though.
we could only dream, this is the start of the death of windows&#33; BRING ON THE DEATH MARCH&#33;

marc
6th April 2006, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by takumi@Apr 6 2006, 09:41 AM
If there is to be migration its not going to start with developers it will start with users, developers won&#39;t simply change to OS X because it better, they want to make sure there&#39;s money
And this will help grow market share = more &#036; for devs on the mac :)

timothy
6th April 2006, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by hawker@Apr 6 2006, 08:28 AM
You think :blink:

I just think its silly, I&#39;m all about denying Windows exists, I say boot up Mac OS X and Linux - Windows has no place. fuck gaming, if you want to game buy an xBox or PlayStation and sit in front of your tv ;)

If you can&#39;t find a mac or linux alternative to a windows program, then it&#39;s probably not worth having.
dell have dual core intel, it will be funny if you could boot osx leopard on the new dells

nbetts
6th April 2006, 09:53 AM
The big thing this will do is make switching so much easier for Mum Dad and Kids users. They will be able to run all the stuff they are used to and slowly migrate over to the Apple platform as they feel comfortable. It takes away that "scared" feeling general users may have for the whole switching process.

It also opens the doors for large companies to migrate from Windows to mac at a pace they can set for themselves.

gizo
6th April 2006, 09:55 AM
What an amazing confidence Apple have in their OS over XP... Crikey....Will Bootcamp support Vista also? Just wait till they sell the machines with both OS&#39;s, and a 30 day money back guarantee if you like Windows better.... heh

The dual boot is not for me, it is way too cumbersome an approach. But I do understand how it can work for some of you.

Also, has anyone pondered the next Apple OS after OSX? ....OSXI, or as I like to call it, OS Sexxi... grrrr....

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by hawker@Apr 6 2006, 09:00 AM
Apple mose well discontinue support of Mac OS X and just boot Windows, it seems as though everyone wants to run Windows instead of Mac OS X....
people dont want to run windows instead of OSX .
people want to have the option to run windows along side OS X

its clear you hate windows.
but its still exreamly useful for alot of people.

a few groups that this will help

-Windows developers wh are mac users
-gamers
-Web developers

im sure there are more aswell
im not a windows fan but i respect windows and it has its good points.

and if your going to run windows why not on a mac.pcs are all just so damn ugly and cheap :)

Graham
6th April 2006, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by luke_in_tas@Apr 6 2006, 10:38 AM
I wonder thought—did Apple wait to release this until after they signed that 5-year agreement with Microsoft that requires Microsoft to continue to develop Office for OS X?
You cynic ;)

If I want to develop in OS X I have to use Cocoa or Carbon. If I want to develop on Windows I have to use the ever-changing Win32, .NET, ADO, DAO, COM and MFC which leads to one other acronym - FFS. Developers are going to use the tools which give the biggest bang for money and effort *and* don&#39;t continually change. Now if only the Cocoa framework also ran on Windows...

Someone mentioned on another forum that a boot camp is only the initial stage when preparing for war. I think we&#39;ve just heard the first shots being fired.

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by gringo@Apr 6 2006, 10:55 AM
Will Bootcamp support Vista also?
i expect it will at some stage but not yet.

gmask1
6th April 2006, 10:01 AM
My first thought it that this was rather neatly timed to coincide with the end of the windows-on-intel-macs competition. Now that people have this interest in hacking apart their Mac to run Windows, Apple gives them all a &#39;here&#39;s one we made earlier&#39; method. It keeps the momentum going from the competition.

I think it&#39;s got potential - I had planned on buying an X360 to run games on, but now I can buy a shiny new Mac instead, which gives me much more pleasure and makes all my Mac stuff run all the better. :D

sikosis
6th April 2006, 10:04 AM
its a win for both companies really ... a win for apple cos Windows Users won&#39;t just have to buy a clone PC in order to run Windows and a win for Microsoft as they&#39;ll still get cash for their OS. (except for those ppl who run illegal software).

"Remember, Apple Computer does not sell or support Microsoft Windows."

That line isn&#39;t exactly true ... cos when you buy Office Pro for the Mac you get Virtual PC with a copy of Windows Pro. Isn&#39;t that Apple selling MS Windows ??? Looks like it to me ...

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by gmask1@Apr 6 2006, 11:01 AM
My first thought it that this was rather neatly timed to coincide with the end of the windows-on-intel-macs competition. Now that people have this interest in hacking apart their Mac to run Windows, Apple gives them all a &#39;here&#39;s one we made earlier&#39; method. It keeps the momentum going from the competition.
they couldnt have timed it better.
They have already got a heap of free press rom the previous solution and now they have come out with somethng much better.its the perfect move.
guess the other one is dead.apples solution seems to be a mile ahead

ruegen
6th April 2006, 10:05 AM
What I&#39;m dreading is the industry and stock critics soon saying "this was a good decision by Apple, they should have done this earlier" <_<


:rolleyes:

fiark
6th April 2006, 10:06 AM
*deleted*

hawker
6th April 2006, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by iSlayer@Apr 6 2006, 09:26 AM
people dont want to run windows instead of OSX .
people want to have the option to run windows along side OS X
Agreed - however, I still think an emulator is the way to go - unless Apple are just testing how well their hardware performs in regards to gaming etc.

Currawong
6th April 2006, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by hawker@Apr 6 2006, 09:02 AM
My point still remains, I understand the need for windows, I don&#39;t believe in it, and avoid its use at all costs. my concept was noted in IRC and just above. that why aren&#39;t they looking at VMware or something - instead of fully booting Windows?
No direct hardware access from VMWare (ie: games wont run properly). Other companies are providing virtual solutions anyway.

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by hawker@Apr 6 2006, 11:10 AM
Agreed - however, I still think an emulator is the way to go - unless Apple are just testing how well their hardware performs in regards to gaming etc.
why use emulators that cant run at full speed when you can run it natiely
THe fastest windows emulator for intel macs in Q but its much slower then running windows natively and it cant run games

Quasar
6th April 2006, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by larfinboy@Apr 6 2006, 09:40 AM
So do we have any FPS for the iMac running Windows XP ?

I&#39;m very interested in the possibility of playing BF2 or DoD:S on a Mac running Windows.

Someone over on the arstechnica forums has been running Oblivion on his 2.16Ghz MBP. Was only getting 10-20 fps according to him with not quite defeault settings.

stefanlod
6th April 2006, 10:16 AM
I&#39;m almost in a state of shock and disbelief. When I woke up this morning, I read this and I was convinced that it had to be an April fool&#39;s joke, then I saw the editorials. I&#39;m very interested, although I&#39;m not sure what&#39;s happening is good or bad. I know that should my mother get an Intel iMac, she would never leave Windows.

In a way, I disagree that Apple allowed Windows to be booted as the default startup disk, because pushing option on startup is quick for one, but if you leave the computer for a reboot (windows patches do that often&#33;) and have a coffee, you&#39;ll come back and you&#39;ll be greeted with the OS X interface and remember "that&#39;s right, this looks good. I&#39;ll need to remind myself to look at this a bit more sometime."

edit: I downloaded the package off the site, I noticed that even though it&#39;s meant only for Intel macs, it&#39;s still a universal binary. Apple is obviously committed to providing for both architectures.

second edit: Tried to install the dmg with the drivers on my Virtual PC. Gives you an error about getting "wrong machineID" or some cryptic message like that. Obviously you can&#39;t just slot this drivers CD into any machine.

Graham
6th April 2006, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by gmask1@Apr 6 2006, 11:01 AM
My first thought it that this was rather neatly timed to coincide with the end of the windows-on-intel-macs competition.
I wonder if the people who won that actually worked for Apple. *That* would be a great way to get heaps of publicity and earn a bit of extra money :P

Quasar
6th April 2006, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by fiark@Apr 6 2006, 10:06 AM
Is there such a thing as "a best Microsoft Windows XP experience". I just wet myself laughing...
Yeah. Homebuilds.

Johnny Appleseed
6th April 2006, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by Graham@Apr 6 2006, 09:58 AM
You cynic ;)

If I want to develop in OS X I have to use Cocoa or Carbon. If I want to develop on Windows I have to use the ever-changing Win32, .NET, ADO, DAO, COM and MFC which leads to one other acronym - FFS. Developers are going to use the tools which give the biggest bang for money and effort *and* don&#39;t continually change. Now if only the Cocoa framework also ran on Windows...

Someone mentioned on another forum that a boot camp is only the initial stage when preparing for war. I think we&#39;ve just heard the first shots being fired.
There are rumours Apple will be releasing Yellow Box for Windows, so developers can produce Cocoa apps for both platforms with no extra effort.

step_andy
6th April 2006, 10:23 AM
For those who has installed XP via Bootcamp - is there a way to share files between XP and OS X (eg like shared folders in VPC) on the same Mac?

timothy
6th April 2006, 10:24 AM
mac users would want to boot osx at work on PC&#39;s wouldn&#39;t they for dotmac etc... i am sure this could be next. a trade off. xp is doomed if generic machines can boot apple software "with support" hp may get scared and just want to sell it&#39;s intel machines to every user.

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by step_andy@Apr 6 2006, 11:23 AM
For those who has installed XP via Bootcamp - is there a way to share files between XP and OS X (eg like shared folders in VPC) on the same Mac?
yes
from mac to windows you dont need anything if the windows paritition is fat32

from windows to mac you will need something like Macdrive (http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive6/)

ruegen
6th April 2006, 10:30 AM
I wonder if Apple will bring back the anti virus program they made for .mac users...?

gmask1
6th April 2006, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by stefanlod@Apr 6 2006, 10:16 AM
I know that should my mother get an Intel iMac, she would never leave Windows.
I think that this is something that people don&#39;t realise - there are sooooooooo*breath*oooooooooo many people that simply cannot or refuse to change their ways. Go with what works, and stick with it.

Give such a person a Mac with OSX & Windows, and guess what? They&#39;re going to stick with what they know.

At my Mums primary school, there is one teacher who has any interest in trying new computer stuff. My Mum - a semi-literate Windows user - has been creating the reporting software for classes in Excel and Word. There mere mention of having to change her ways after spending so long getting to this point freaks her out for two reasons: 1) she can&#39;t justify the time spent learning new stuff; and 2) the amount of time she spent training the rest of the teachers in using the reporting tools would have to be done all over again.

jerrah
6th April 2006, 10:33 AM
Well I installed it on my macbook pro last night.

I tried the webcam (because it was available under &#39;my computer&#39;) and managed to bluescreen my macbook. ;)

Process all in all works ok, the optical out port seems to be constantly on - shining out red light like a laser pointer. I haven&#39;t installed any games on it yet, I&#39;ll give it a go tonight.

iMick
6th April 2006, 10:36 AM
I think today will be a landmark in apple&#39;s history. This is a great move to sell more macs to n00bs and to showcase how OSX pisses on XP and Vista. But I can&#39;t help the little voice in the back of my head reminding me of that Dvorak tool&#39;s article on how apple will ditch OSX for windows. I know it won&#39;t happen but if they release the yellowbox cocoa/carbon API&#39;s to windows, the battle will be lost i think.

Anyways I won&#39;t get to excited until there is an official DarWINE port. Thats what apple should have done to stick it to M&#036;

macmate
6th April 2006, 10:41 AM
i don&#39;t get the whole "people that aren&#39;t willing to try something new will be willing to try a mac now" theory. if they are not willing to try something new they won&#39;t buy a more expensive computer to run the same software they currently do on a cheaper computer. it just won&#39;t happen. dual booting is a pain. the only people this will be useful for are those that want a mac for home but need a PC for work and they can now get their work to buy them a mac laptop and they will be set with only one computer.

i think the bank in japan has the right idea. ...... i think if visualization comes about and you can run pc apps inside os x then we might see a real shift as your schools and big companies can buy a more secure system while still running their custom built apps. but that just brings us one step closer to developers not ever bothering to make mac native apps anymore. i

i see this whole thing as a big risk. if it backfires, apple is in trouble.

Ric

jerrah
6th April 2006, 10:44 AM
Well I don&#39;t think any of their current customers are going to not buy macs in the future because they can dual boot windows. So they&#39;ll either flatline or make more sales.

Personally I know lots of people who would be more willing to buy a mac if they could dualboot for specific applications. People who are now considering buying one.

paulharrop
6th April 2006, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by iMick@Apr 6 2006, 10:36 AM
But I can&#39;t help the little voice in the back of my head reminding me of that Dvorak tool&#39;s article on how apple will ditch OSX for windows.
I&#39;ll fall on my sword.

I&#39;m already going to chuck my ICT support role at my school and go back to classroom teaching partly because of Education Qlds one-eyed view about computers (no need to guess which OS).

At least in my classroom I can use my Mac for all that I create and present.

You can lead a horse to windows but you can&#39;t make him drink it&#33;&#33;&#33;

lavo
6th April 2006, 10:45 AM
Anyone remember the DOS card for Powermacs? Apple survived that too :-)

If you can&#39;t take the horse to water, bring the water to the horse :-)

Chr1s
6th April 2006, 10:46 AM
This is fantastic news. I agree, the timing couldn&#39;t have been more perfect.

My family refuse to use a Mac because of the learning curve, and now there&#39;ll be no excuse for them. This is a great chance for a mixed Windows/Mac user household to really get a preview for how much more user-friendly OSX is to XP.

They couldn&#39;t have planned this better. They have literally made it possible for you to compare them side-by-side, and I honestly don&#39;t see anyone coming out of this saying they still prefer Windows...

macmate
6th April 2006, 10:52 AM
tell me that again when developers stop making programs for the mac and the mac becomes nothing more thn a machine running windows..

i don&#39;t know anyone that is now convinced to buy a mac, those that were last week wanted a mac to escape windows, not to have one foot in each camp. these people were convinced by the fact that there was a clear destinction between the two. yes, they will still buy a mac, but not because it boots windows, my fear is the software developer based one. not selling hardware. that very short term way of seeing things. if someone buy the mac and runs windows on it and it not running as stable as their previous machine then they will get a bad view of macs. its a risk. thats all i am saying.

Ric

melbmac
6th April 2006, 10:55 AM
I am dying to give this a go...

Problem is me and most of my friends all all mac die hards so believe it or not I am finding it hard to get a copy of XP Pro (dont want to do it with home) with the service pack...

:D

eroda
6th April 2006, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by The Fluffy Duck@Apr 5 2006, 11:16 PM
Oh this is loverly. Apple making duel boot easy and pretty. Plus all the drivers. Should run nice and tight.

I never thought apple would make something like this. Maybe its part of there master plan........what ever that maybe.


looks like once its a full release you will have to pay for it. Funny thing is, everything done by apple will work perfectly including the instalatiion the burning of the cds. Then you start using xp :(
considering 65% of apples profict on the imac comes from the hardware upmarket, i dont think they care if everyone runs windows

gmask1
6th April 2006, 10:57 AM
Hopefully this will also expedite the release of the Intel PowerMacs - apart from those people who absolutely need them now, who else would be mad enough to buy a G5 tower that couldn&#39;t dual boot?

macmate
6th April 2006, 11:02 AM
am i missing something or is everyone being very short sighted?

firstly, if someone is a die hard windows users they are not going to buy a mac to have to pay exctra to run windows.

secondly, why would a software develope port their apps or continue to make apps for the mac os when they can simply make you run it in windows. There are users that want to save &#036;20 on their computer and will go to the other side of town to do so, what makes you think they will pay hundreds more to use a mac?

thirdly, you all forget that you make up a tiny percentage of the computer industry, most people know nothing about computers, they don&#39;t want to dual boot, they couldn&#39;t care less, they just want to run their mail program and surf the next and get off. lets face it, users like us make up a tiny percentage of the computer industry. what we see as an advantage , they usually couldn&#39;t care less about.

i have a million more points but i really should get some work done. when apple gets low cost computers with kick arse graphics cards and gaming becomes better then i might get excited but for now i think its nothing more than a gimic just like the dual boot macs use to be. good in theory but not in practice.

Ric

macmate
6th April 2006, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by gmask1@Apr 6 2006, 10:57 AM
Hopefully this will also expedite the release of the Intel PowerMacs - apart from those people who absolutely need them now, who else would be mad enough to buy a G5 tower that couldn&#39;t dual boot?
someone who needs a new computer and has a lot of adobe softare that will be used but they need the speed... but don&#39;t want to pay lots to upgrade their software when it eventually comes out. ie 90% of my clients. do you really think a graphics designer give a crap about dual boot?

takumi
6th April 2006, 11:06 AM
I&#39;m one example, i only ordered my MBP when i knew that they had windows running, not because i want to solely run windows, but mainly because i need windows programs for uni.
And now i believe there is even more incentive because it official.

What would be bad is if OS X ran on normal PC&#39;s all apples hardware sales would plummit

lavo
6th April 2006, 11:07 AM
Don&#39;t forget with all this naysaying is that a Mac out of the box does not boot Windows. It does not come with Windows. The user (at this stage) has to go in physically install Bootcamp (and risk all the things that go with resizing volumes on the fly), then spend over &#036;300 for XP full version, just to install Windows. And Apple don&#39;t support it at all. You can&#39;t ring up Applecare and complain that something went wrong in the installation and you lost all your Mac files.

At this stage, I see it purely as a marketing ploy from Apple. The amount of publicity they will get today will be enormous. Money can&#39;t buy that&#33; If anything, it might be a martketing gimmick to kick along Intel mac sales. Who knows, they might have look at the numbers this quarter and thought the uptake would have been better. How many people in this thread have suddenly said their Intel Mac purchase has been pushed forward?

Personally, I think Apple will stay with dual boot rather than virtualisation. It will be an option in 10.5 to either reboot into Windows, or have Windows running on a second screen. Notice how the intel iMacs now can dual display? :-) Guaranteed it will involve the user having to purchase a license for Windows, and having to manually install.

Quamen
6th April 2006, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by hawker@Apr 6 2006, 08:47 AM
Good for you&#33; Go get a bloody PC then...

Mac = Mac OS X / Linux
PC = Windows / Linux
Nah you got that wrong

Mac = Mac OS X / Linux / Windows
PC = Windows / Linux

:D

And I&#39;m very very happy now. As a software engineer this is a massive step forward. One machine instead of two for me now.

Windows for Windows work, OS X for everything else, one machine to rule them all....

macmate
6th April 2006, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by takumi@Apr 6 2006, 11:06 AM
I&#39;m one example, i only ordered my MBP when i knew that they had windows running, not because i want to solely run windows, but mainly because i need windows programs for uni.
And now i believe there is even more incentive because it official.

What would be bad is if OS X ran on normal PC&#39;s all apples hardware sales would plummit
i ran a mac all through out uni without a problem.

if more macs are used then more software will be made for them, if the mac users get the software to run on windows anyway, where is the point of that company porting their software to mac? so for the good of a few , the risk becomes losing developers and therefore risking future apple sales. if it gets to a point that i have to have one foot in each camp to be productive then i will just stop using an apple all together. it will be interesting to see what effect this has on the industry.

Ric

chuckie
6th April 2006, 11:19 AM
It&#39;s the next Trojan after iPod... users will know how crap win xp is and switch&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

lavo
6th April 2006, 11:29 AM
You&#39;ll like this one Hawker&#33;

New version of the Mac/Intel ad (http://youtube.com/watch?v=RwHMIxdDdu8)

thomas
6th April 2006, 11:35 AM
The idea of being able to have one machine that will let me play all the latest games in Windows, and do everything else I need to do in OS X appeals to me on so many levels.

A lot of people buy PCs purely for gaming. Now that is becoming a real possibility on Apple hardware.

(just one perspective)

hawker
6th April 2006, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by lavo@Apr 6 2006, 10:59 AM
You&#39;ll like this one Hawker&#33;

New version of the Mac/Intel ad (http://youtube.com/watch?v=RwHMIxdDdu8)
I pissed myself soo hard&#33;&#33;&#33;

Graham
6th April 2006, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by macmate@Apr 6 2006, 12:02 PM
firstly, if someone is a die hard windows users they are not going to buy a mac to have to pay exctra to run windows.
That is not what this thing is aimed at.


secondly, why would a software develope port their apps or continue to make apps for the mac os when they can simply make you run it in windows. There are users that want to save &#036;20 on their computer and will go to the other side of town to do so, what makes you think they will pay hundreds more to use a mac?

Software developers write software where they can make money. Mac developers do make a reasonable living so the demand is out there. There&#39;s also the issue of development tools and developers do have preferences for using certain ones (ie: XCode).

People who buy the cheapest computers are not the target market of Boot Camp (or Apple). People who buy name brand computers are.


thirdly, you all forget that you make up a tiny percentage of the computer industry, most people know nothing about computers, they don&#39;t want to dual boot, they couldn&#39;t care less, they just want to run their mail program and surf the next and get off. lets face it, users like us make up a tiny percentage of the computer industry. what we see as an advantage , they usually couldn&#39;t care less about.

But the people who do understand about it write articles which are read by the others. Then it seeps gradually into the general world view. If a few of the right people follow up on this (eg: those making the purchasing decisions for educational establishments and businesses) then a lot of the &#39;uninformed&#39; people start to have their ideas changed. It&#39;s a very slow process so don&#39;t think it won&#39;t work just because you can&#39;t see it happening within the next month.


but for now i think its nothing more than a gimic just like the dual boot macs use to be. good in theory but not in practice

Nope. It may not meet *your* needs but there&#39;s a lot of others out there with different needs.

Quasar
6th April 2006, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by thomas@Apr 6 2006, 11:35 AM
The idea of being able to have one machine that will let me play all the latest games in Windows, and do everything else I need to do in OS X appeals to me on so many levels.

A lot of people buy PCs purely for gaming. Now that is becoming a real possibility on Apple hardware.

(just one perspective)
Though I&#39;m not sure what impact it will have on gamers, if the easily upgradable machines (ie: the towers) is kept at premium price levels.

macmate
6th April 2006, 11:50 AM
graham, i do think it will suit some peoples needs just fine, but itsnot the consumer homerun everyone seems to be making it out to be. i have already fielded many calls today on this subject and people just seem to be getting it all wrong. its been a few decades and all these uninformed people are yet to change their opinions, a while back you could dual boot your mac with windows, s it was nothing mre than a gimic and it didn&#39;t change anyones mind.

one thing you 100% about is that developers do what ever makes them money, this gives them one more insentive to drop mac support on their product as it can now dual boot. one more incentive they didn&#39;t need as we need to hold onto. this will save them money without losing their market (ie they can make people run it under windows on their mac) all you need is one app to stop being made for the make before you get all my clients booting into windows, once that happens all you need if for them to compare pricing on a new mac to a windows box, and then the macs are out the window completely. all i am saying is that its playing with fire when they don&#39;t need to.

in fact graham, i am one of the few people i know that can really benifit from this announcement (on a personal level). but i am not so short sighted that i think that means its going to be good for apple. choice is good for the customer but not always for the company.

takumi
6th April 2006, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by macmate@Apr 6 2006, 11:13 AM
i ran a mac all through out uni without a problem.

Ric
Unfortunately, Modula2 is OLD and only for windows and linux, which i need for uni.
Though you may be able to help, would using fink enable me to install it on my macbook?

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by macmate@Apr 6 2006, 12:50 PM
one thing you 100% about is that developers do what ever makes them money, this gives them one more insentive to drop mac support on their product as it can now dual boot. one more incentive they didn&#39;t need as we need to hold onto.
but people wont buy macs to run windows only
they may use windows but 99% wont use it as the primary OS

macmate
6th April 2006, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by takumi@Apr 6 2006, 11:51 AM
Unfortunately, Modula2 is OLD and only for windows and linux, which i need for uni.
Though you may be able to help, would using fink enable me to install it on my macbook?
well worth a try..... fink is pretty handy as is X11.... check them out as it might help you along nicely.



its a pain having to reboot to just use one app. you will soon see that most customers will just stay in windows if they find themselves having to boot into it to use an app on a regualr basis.

thomas
6th April 2006, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by iSlayer@Apr 6 2006, 11:52 AM
but people wont buy macs to run windows only
they may use windows but 99% wont use it as the primary OS
Thats right.

It basically gives people the option of using windows when they really need it (etax anyone?) without having to buy another computer.

I wouldn&#39;t consider using Windows for anything other than what wasn&#39;t available on OSX, but it&#39;d sure be nice to have a convenient option of doing so.

Brewster
6th April 2006, 11:56 AM
The financial analysts seem to think this will work for apple (see link). They may not always be right but it is there job not hobby.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1652

edit; spelling

macmate
6th April 2006, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by iSlayer@Apr 6 2006, 11:52 AM
but people wont buy macs to run windows only
they may use windows but 99% wont use it as the primary OS
yeah i understand that..... i will give you one example mate.

i have a customer that is a developer and has some accounting software he has been creating and porting to the mac os cause a few people want to have macs in the front room. he just called me and is now not going to bother. instead he will save money and for his clients to buy a mac and run windows on it to use his package. this will end up in them buying a pc at half the price as they need to be using this all day and therefore won&#39;t ever be in the mac OS. There goes a mac developer. There goes some sales for apple, there also goes a bunch of people that would have used apples all day and realised what i dream it is compared to windows and would maybe have bought one for their next computer, there goes a bunch of people that would have been exposed to the iLife suite as well as a new world of computing.

its just one example, and i see your point too, .

macmate
6th April 2006, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Brewster@Apr 6 2006, 11:56 AM
The financial analysts seem to think this will work for apple (see link). They may not always be right but it is there job not hobby.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1652

edit; spelling
yeah and how many times has apple been "dead" to these people. how many ipod killers have come and gone? they may know finance but i talk to clients day in and day out, what tehy are missing is not a dual boot system, they are missing software and cheaper prices. this is what they want. They do not want to dual boot, they want to double click and there it is.

i 100% agree with thomas on the whole etax thing. but hey they are creating a mac verison. but who knows now. they might now force people to just run it under windows as its now a feature, makes me wonder why they didn&#39;t just do it in java in the first place and have it work on every single system.

marc
6th April 2006, 12:05 PM
macmate :: I understand what you&#39;re saying. I think the devs that create Java apps or non-full cocoa "take advantage of everything OS X has to offer" apps may be lost. The really good full OS X apps won&#39;t disappear though.

vargz
6th April 2006, 12:08 PM
Well this is exciting news :thumbup: , particularly for me from a web development and from a business/corporate viewpoint (yes, where it&#39;s a Windows world).

But for now I&#39;ll let all you early-adopters test/review the current set-up, provide reviews and insights and effectively iron out the bugs for Apple. In the meantime, I&#39;ll hang on to my Powerbook G4 and when the time is right (when Rev B/C intel Mac Mini/MBPs and 10.5 Leopard are released), I&#39;ll leap into the world of Win on Mac :)

macmate
6th April 2006, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by marc@Apr 6 2006, 12:05 PM
macmate :: I understand what you&#39;re saying. I think the devs that create Java apps or non-full cocoa "take advantage of everything OS X has to offer" apps may be lost. The really good full OS X apps won&#39;t disappear though.
yet

that will depend on the trend. what about ms? do you think they will develop office for mac now? i mean why would they? why not just for pc, that way you not only mac an office sale you make a windows sale and you also save money on dev. i know this won&#39;t happen now, but if apple actually start to make some inroads on the os marketshare then watch MS start to bully. i don&#39;t hink we have anything to worry about short term but i think that the long term variables are too great to be really messing with.

Though i supose that they could always cancel this feature in a few years if its not good just like the licencing of the OS.

Ric

Applecider
6th April 2006, 12:10 PM
Crikey I was going out now to buy a 12" G4 Powerbook...talk about timing. My only laptop option is now a Macbook.......The new intel ibooks must be around the corner.

bartron
6th April 2006, 12:10 PM
In my experience, dual booting is a pain. A lot of developers I know will have two machines, one for linux and one for windows even though they can run on the same PC simply becasue it is a pain to be dual booting back and forth. At the least they will have vmware or something running and this is where I think Apple should head.

Run OS X as your main OS and run windows/linux in a virtual machine for testing.

Better still, get the VM in hardware (xen or similar) and run both OS&#39;s native at the same time...this is where it is at (and is what mainframes have been doing since almost forever)

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by macmate@Apr 6 2006, 01:08 PM
that will depend on the trend. what about ms? do you think they will develop office for mac now? i mean why would they? why not just for pc, that way you not only mac an office sale you make a windows sale and you also save money on dev.
its kinda like saying why should microsoft make office for mac when people can just buy a pc

macmate
6th April 2006, 12:15 PM
i agree completely barto, why would you reboot your machine just to open a browser, see that all is ok, the reboot again? i mean really. you either get a second machine so you can just hit the reload button and not reboot at all or you get VPC or something similar. even developers of windows programs use VPC or the like so that if the program crashes they don&#39;t have to reboot or lose anything else..

macmate
6th April 2006, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by iSlayer@Apr 6 2006, 12:12 PM
its kinda like saying why should microsoft make office for mac when people can just buy a pc
because some people prefer a mac, they don&#39;t want a PC (hardware wise)

step_andy
6th April 2006, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by iSlayer@Apr 6 2006, 12:12 PM
its kinda like saying why should microsoft make office for mac when people can just buy a pc
Has this rendered VPC obselite?

On other hand, how many XP copies this will sell for M&#036;? I am guessing that most of people don&#39;t have a spare XP licence lying around.

I have VPC with XP on G4. If I get intel Mac, will I need another XP licence?

Graham
6th April 2006, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by macmate@Apr 6 2006, 12:50 PM
graham, i do think it will suit some peoples needs just fine, but itsnot the consumer homerun everyone seems to be making it out to be
Perhaps I&#39;m reading different things but I have yet to see anyone claiming it to be a consumer home run. I see it as more of an off-drive through a packed field to the boundary to get to double figures :)


i have already fielded many calls today on this subject and people just seem to be getting it all wrong. its been a few decades and all these uninformed people are yet to change their opinions, a while back you could dual boot your mac with windows, s it was nothing mre than a gimic and it didn&#39;t change anyones mind.

A "few decades" ago people could see no need for a personal computer and certainly not a GUI. Products not only have to be good but they also have to be done at the right time. Dual booting a while back wasn&#39;t the right time; things are very, very different in the industry these days.

I&#39;ve had a few emails about it and those people appear to have understood it.


one thing you 100% about is that developers do what ever makes them money, this gives them one more insentive to drop mac support on their product as it can now dual boot. one more incentive they didn&#39;t need as we need to hold onto.

You&#39;re forgetting that there will always be a market which always buys OS X software. If one developer switches to Windows only then they immediately drop out of reckoning when a purchase is required for a cross-platform area. That means those which offer both platforms are going to increase sales. Just because a product is the main seller doesn&#39;t mean it can&#39;t fall away in a hurry.

People buy Macs to run OS X. They do not buy them to run Windows apps but if it does that for the few percent who need it then that can only help.


in fact graham, i am one of the few people i know that can really benifit from this announcement (on a personal level). but i am not so short sighted that i think that means its going to be good for apple. choice is good for the customer but not always for the company.

Funnily enough I will also benefit from this, especially if Yellow Box appears at the WWDC. I&#39;m not so short-sighted as to think this will be anything but good for Apple. I guess at least one of us will be proven wrong over time :)

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by macmate@Apr 6 2006, 01:15 PM
because some people prefer a mac, they don&#39;t want a PC (hardware wise)
same with software :)

macmate
6th April 2006, 12:27 PM
graham, i am not stating i think it will be 100% bad. i am simply saying that apple better have a good plann for this because if they think just making it dual bootable is going to solve their problems then they have another thing coming. i for one hope that they know what they are doing.

sometimes a piece of software is the only choice, they are the onees i am worried about. not where there are 4 or 5 choices. There are areas apple needs to improve their software choice, not hand developers one more reason as to why it would be &#39;ok&#39; if they jump ship (like i said i don&#39;t see that happening short term). but i have been proven write that this is enough for some to do so (ie my client this morning).

again, i think this will be good for me, i just worry about apple.

nez
6th April 2006, 12:30 PM
um..I&#39;m speechless.

Graham
6th April 2006, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by bartron@Apr 6 2006, 01:10 PM
Run OS X as your main OS and run windows/linux in a virtual machine for testing.
That would be the perfect situation. Here&#39;s a purely hypothetical timeline:

April: Apple releases Boot Camp. People start to understand Macs can run Windows. Lots of feedback about performance and stability pours in because it is running directly on the hardware.

June: Boot Camp comes out of beta. Not many people are using it in the real world but there&#39;s still a huge buzz going around.

August: At the WWDC Steve announces that while the best OS in the world runs on the best machines in the world without a hitch Windows also runs on them. He then announces that Leopard will allow both of those OS&#39;s to run simultaneously.

November: Leopard comes out and people buy lots of Macs for Xmas.

2007: People start spending more and more time in OS X and so demand software developers give them native applications.

2010: Just like Classic people found they haven&#39;t opened the Windows bit for months.

2014: We welcome our new Apple overlords.

gilligan911
6th April 2006, 12:33 PM
Ahh. The more things change the more things stay the same....

I just happened to be in DJ&#39;s half an hour ago looking at an Intel Mac Mini for a friend. Two uni students walked up to look at a 12" Powerbook. Said uni student one, "I want something that I can carry around easily", as she looked over the Powerbook.

"But," replied uni student two, "that&#39;s an Apple, and things aren&#39;t compatible with Apples."

And they walked away to look at the Windows notebooks.



Moral of the stoy: the vast majority of Windows users barely know that Apple or OSX exists. They don&#39;t read the tech pages in the SMH, much less forums like this. They will neither know or care that you can dual boot Intel Macs. As much as it will excite endless interest among the online tech community, "Boot camp" will be of little interest to the vast majority of computer users.

Graham
6th April 2006, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by macmate@Apr 6 2006, 01:27 PM
graham, i am not stating i think it will be 100% bad. i am simply saying that apple better have a good plann for this because if they think just making it dual bootable is going to solve their problems then they have another thing coming. i for one hope that they know what they are doing.
I understand what you are saying. I think we&#39;re looking at this from glass half empty/half full perspectives. I also see this as just a small step rather than a full solution, much in the same manner that TV shows on the iTMS are a step towards movie downloads. We all know that one of the big missing pieces for Apple in the entertainment area is Airport Express for video but they&#39;ve had to put in all the other pieces first. That&#39;s what I see Boot Camp as - a part of the jigsaw and not the whole picture.

macmate
6th April 2006, 12:39 PM
thank you gilligan911 for seeing thinks from an outsiders point of view. This is exactly the sort of thing i have been saying. if this &#39;inforamtion&#39; and &#39;facts&#39; trickle down society as had been suggested then you would think that 95% of society wouldn&#39;t still be so ignorant to the fact that even without dual boot, macs srvive in a PC world just fine.

Ric

macmate
6th April 2006, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by Graham@Apr 6 2006, 12:39 PM
I understand what you are saying. I think we&#39;re looking at this from glass half empty/half full perspectives. I also see this as just a small step rather than a full solution, much in the same manner that TV shows on the iTMS are a step towards movie downloads. We all know that one of the big missing pieces for Apple in the entertainment area is Airport Express for video but they&#39;ve had to put in all the other pieces first. That&#39;s what I see Boot Camp as - a part of the jigsaw and not the whole picture.
some jigsaws are so hard that people don&#39;t both finishing them because by the time they would, they would have moved on.

apple may have a plan, but regardless what it is, visualisation if the better solution anyway and that means developers really don&#39;t need to make mac software as pc software will run natively on the hardware without needing to reboot. my only issue with that is that we then can get viruses and spyware..

Ric

titan44
6th April 2006, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by gilligan911@Apr 6 2006, 12:33 PM

Moral of the stoy: the vast majority of Windows users barely know that Apple or OSX exists. They don&#39;t read the tech pages in the SMH, much less forums like this. They will neither know or care that you can dual boot Intel Macs. As much as it will excite endless interest among the online tech community, "Boot camp" will be of little interest to the vast majority of computer users.
Which is why you should have preached from the book of Jobs and set these heathens straight&#33;

lavo
6th April 2006, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by macmate@Apr 6 2006, 12:00 PM
yeah i understand that..... i will give you one example mate.

i have a customer that is a developer and has some accounting software he has been creating and porting to the mac os cause a few people want to have macs in the front room. he just called me and is now not going to bother. instead he will save money and for his clients to buy a mac and run windows on it to use his package. this will end up in them buying a pc at half the price as they need to be using this all day and therefore won&#39;t ever be in the mac OS. There goes a mac developer. There goes some sales for apple, there also goes a bunch of people that would have used apples all day and realised what i dream it is compared to windows and would maybe have bought one for their next computer, there goes a bunch of people that would have been exposed to the iLife suite as well as a new world of computing.

its just one example, and i see your point too, .
What about the developers Apple have lost through their own actions? Konfabulator, Watson, half of Adobe&#39;s video suite.......how is this any different? Apple has gradually killed off any opposing *Mac* software products over the years. Watson was sooooo much better than Sherlock. I have seen how much alternative software have dropped off the shelves of Applecentres in the almost 8 years I have been working in them. More Apple apps on the shelves, but less alternatives.

What incentive is there to make an iLife competitor? An alternative Mail client?

That&#39;s one thing I&#39;ll give credit to MS - their bundled software is so crap they help out developers&#33;

:-)

mechcon
6th April 2006, 12:49 PM
I think I wont tell my friend who bought a 17" powerbook yesterday, otherwise he&#39;ll crack the shits :P

meh, the attitude is, just because a new product that is to replace the old is out, and active, doesn&#39;t mean the old is dead instantly

it means it&#39;ll continue to do it&#39;s merry job till it&#39;s half-life is over so to speak..

Graham
6th April 2006, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by macmate@Apr 6 2006, 01:39 PM
This is exactly the sort of thing i have been saying. if this &#39;inforamtion&#39; and &#39;facts&#39; trickle down society as had been suggested then you would think that 95% of society wouldn&#39;t still be so ignorant to the fact that even without dual boot, macs srvive in a PC world just fine.
As I mentioned earlier information takes a long time (ie: years) to get through to people who aren&#39;t specifically interested in an area. Having a higher profile helps and the iPod has helped give Apple the highest profile it&#39;s had with the general public for decades. And for the right reasons this time.


some jigsaws are so hard that people don&#39;t both finishing them because by the time they would, they would have moved on.

Your glass isn&#39;t half empty; someone&#39;s nicked it ;)


that means developers really don&#39;t need to make mac software as pc software will run natively on the hardware without needing to reboot

People *want* to run OS X. People *have to* run Windows. Perhaps that&#39;s a bit simplistic but I think there&#39;s a very large dollop of truth in there. I am not going to switch to running Windows just because I can and I suspect most OS X users are in that situation as well. Let me put that on its own line:

Just because a machine can run Windows doesn&#39;t mean people are compelled to do so.

marc
6th April 2006, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Graham@Apr 6 2006, 01:01 PM
People *want* to run OS X. People *have to* run Windows.
So true.

I know HEAPS of people in that situation... and a lot of them are people who haven&#39;t really had that much experience with OS X.

This will be a good thing.

Sure, M&#036; might drop Office in 5 years, but that was always going to happen as soon as Apple became a big enough threat. Didn&#39;t Apple promise not to release Numbers because M&#036; wouldn&#39;t sign up? (I don&#39;t like spreading unfounded rumours, but I have heard this).

Makes sense. This is just the first step before Apple do tackle M&#036; head on.

Any developers lost, with come back if the mac market share grows. Honestly, I don&#39;t think they&#39;ll be lost though.

timothy
6th April 2006, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Graham@Apr 6 2006, 01:01 PM
Just because a machine can run Windows doesn&#39;t mean people are compelled to do so.
especially when it comes without windows to begin with.

slashingthefox
6th April 2006, 01:20 PM
oh wow, now that is interesting... and to think on my future wish list (as well as getting a new mac, which come first) was a cheap pc, just so I can have both worlds at my finger tips, and so I can be a bit more savvy when dealing with computers at work.

Well, I&#39;m scratching the pc off that list now&#33;

takumi
6th April 2006, 01:24 PM
WOOO i can&#39;t wait to BSOD my new MacBook now&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Why won&#39;t this frikin courier hurry up with my MacBook
So pissed off my windows install of 4 months has just started BSODing it self to the shit, It&#39;s happened twice today.
I&#39;m going to cool off from windows for a while and not touch bootcamp until my feelings of rage have somewhat subsided

(also after this recent BSOD the floppy is spining like crazy with nothing in the drive)
and taskbar doesn&#39;t work until 10 mins after getting into windows

SMEG OFF WINDOWS

Bart Smastard
6th April 2006, 01:28 PM
Apple will have to make a new TV ad, &#39;cos now you can perform dull little tasks on their beautiful little boxes.

:lol:

paulharrop
6th April 2006, 01:34 PM
Running it on my iMac 17 inch at school. Watch out Dell etc it really screams. Apple did a great job on making the installation easy.

Paul

macmate
6th April 2006, 01:40 PM
you said it best graham, people in the know, want to run os x but have to run windows. now if i have to run windows, i won&#39;t be rebooting just to run other apps i could run under windows without a reboot. the only thing that would solve this is if it could run without a reboot.

Ric

mechcon
6th April 2006, 01:42 PM
apparently performance in Oblivion (elder scrolls?) is shocking was it 10-12 fps?

forgie
6th April 2006, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by hawker@Apr 6 2006, 08:28 AM
You think :blink:

I just think its silly, I&#39;m all about denying Windows exists, I say boot up Mac OS X and Linux - Windows has no place. fuck gaming, if you want to game buy an xBox or PlayStation and sit in front of your tv ;)

If you can&#39;t find a mac or linux alternative to a windows program, then it&#39;s probably not worth having.
Shit, you have never worked in the engineering industry, have you :) I can safely say that 95% of the software in engineering is windows only. Some CAD packages come in linux flavours, and even less come in mac flavours.

gmask1
6th April 2006, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by macmate@Apr 6 2006, 01:40 PM
now if i have to run windows, i won&#39;t be rebooting just to run other apps i could run under windows without a reboot. the only thing that would solve this is if it could run without a reboot.

Ric
This was something a friend and I discussed just before. The reason I&#39;ve been able to stay away from Windows since switching in January last year is that all the applications I need have alternatives/versions on the Mac. I had to almost stop playing games altogether, since my favorite games are Windows based and not suited to consoles (the Mac/Win World of Warcraft was a godsend).

Now if I can play Oblivion on my Mac by rebooting into Windows, I&#39;ll be spending more and more time back in Win-world... maybe I will get an X360 after all.

macmate
6th April 2006, 01:47 PM
there are some very good CAD programs for the mac, but on the whole people get taught autocad and hence businesses buy autocad and that is PC only.

Ric

forgie
6th April 2006, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by fiark@Apr 6 2006, 09:16 AM
Hmmm - how happy do you think Microsoft is about this:

This from cnn.com

``We&#39;re pleased that Apple customers are excited about running (Windows), and that Apple is responding to meet the demand.&#39;&#39; Kevin Kutz, a director in Microsoft&#39;s Windows Client Group, said in an e-mailed statement.

Of course they will say they are pleased - but I bet there is a big brick sitting in their pants. Apple rocks. This is one of the days we will look back and know that we were there when the world changed.
I bet they woke up with more then a brick in their pants&#33; I bet it was more like a house&#33;

Windows may now devolve into the OS of choice for gaming, and that&#39;s it.

lavo
6th April 2006, 01:50 PM
Just remember this is a *beta* folks. And it is a component of an unreleased OS. This direct from Apple:

"Warning: Boot Camp Beta is preview software licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time. Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software. Your rights to use Boot Camp Beta are subject to acceptance of the terms of the software license agreement that accompanies the software.

Important: Apple does not provide technical phone support for using Boot Camp Beta, burning the Macintosh Drivers CD, or installing Windows XP. Support is available on Apple&#39;s website. Fee-based support agreements are not available for Boot Camp Beta."

Its a time limited, preview release. Who says this is what Bootcamp will be like (even the name is not set in stone). I guess we will know more in August at WWDC.

macmate
6th April 2006, 01:54 PM
and for those stating that no one is stating that this is a huge deal and it will ruin MS only need look at Forgie&#39;s last post.

Graham
6th April 2006, 01:56 PM
I guess the plans changed :)

After Jobs&#39; presentation, Apple Senior Vice President Phil Schiller addressed the issue of running Windows on Macs, saying there are no plans to sell or support Windows on an Intel-based Mac. "That doesn&#39;t preclude someone from running it on a Mac. They probably will," he said. "We won&#39;t do anything to preclude that." - 06/06/2005

forgie
6th April 2006, 01:57 PM
macmate, I was being tongue in cheek. Damn internet communication....

forgie
6th April 2006, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by lavo@Apr 6 2006, 01:50 PM
Just remember this is a *beta* folks. And it is a component of an unreleased OS. This direct from Apple:

"....I guess we will know more in August at WWDC."
Does that mean that Leopard will be out at WWDC?

decryption
6th April 2006, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by gilligan911@Apr 6 2006, 12:33 PM
Ahh. The more things change the more things stay the same....

I just happened to be in DJ&#39;s half an hour ago looking at an Intel Mac Mini for a friend. Two uni students walked up to look at a 12" Powerbook. Said uni student one, "I want something that I can carry around easily", as she looked over the Powerbook.

"But," replied uni student two, "that&#39;s an Apple, and things aren&#39;t compatible with Apples."

And they walked away to look at the Windows notebooks.



Moral of the stoy: the vast majority of Windows users barely know that Apple or OSX exists. They don&#39;t read the tech pages in the SMH, much less forums like this. They will neither know or care that you can dual boot Intel Macs. As much as it will excite endless interest among the online tech community, "Boot camp" will be of little interest to the vast majority of computer users.
I get customers coming in explaining to me how they set their printer up on their Mac and are sharing it over Appletalk and trying to install the Appletalk protocol on their Windows machine to share the printer. No idea that the Mac can just use SMB and it&#39;s so much simpler.

You are right, I don&#39;t see this as a large selling point of OS X. More of a toy for us geeks and a nifty little tool for those who need an app or two here and there.

That said, I&#39;ll be installing it on the Intel Macs at work, so if a customer asks, or I can tell a customer wants to buy a Mac but is being held back by a Windows-only app, it&#39;s there to show them.

Bart Smastard
6th April 2006, 02:14 PM
There&#39;s a looooooooong way to go until Apple can appeal to the average computer user even if a Mac can run Windows.

Have a look at this comment left on the BBC Have Your Say (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&threadID=1484&start=0&tstart=0&edition=2&ttl=20060406045212&#paginator)


i think its a good idea but i won&#39;t have an apple because the mice are difficult to use

WTF&#33;&#33;&#33; :blink: It&#39;s one button and if you don&#39;t like it just connect a two or three button mouse.

marc
6th April 2006, 02:19 PM
And this:


I&#39;d pick up a mac tomorrow if I knew that saved files could be shared between the operating systems.
Meh. What can you do about it.

Graham
6th April 2006, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Bart Smastard@Apr 6 2006, 03:14 PM
WTF&#33;&#33;&#33; :blink: It&#39;s one button and if you don&#39;t like it just connect a two or three button mouse.
It&#39;s called trying to rationalise something using the flimsiest of pretexts.

There&#39;s a seven minute video on installing Boot Camp at http://features.uneasysilence.com/mactel/

pipsqeek
6th April 2006, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by thomas@Apr 6 2006, 11:55 AM
Thats right.

It basically gives people the option of using windows when they really need it....<snip>
Pfft. Giving people an option.

They&#39;ve been given options, and most of them choose Windows over any other OS. Paying more for that opportunity isn&#39;t going to make it any better.

Plus, I agree 100% with the hindesight macmate is looking at the subject with. I only see it as a gimick, a marketing plot that&#39;s worked, and also made Apple&#39;s shares jump up a nice little amount of money.

Good luck to Apple I say. If this carries on, we&#39;ll (the solitary and patriotic Apple mob) will more then likely be installing PPC *nix on our machines, once all support for OS X applications stop. Or we&#39;ll end up with GIMP and inkscape instead of Photoshop and Illustrator. Open Office instead of MS Office, etc.

I am also torn between the topic. It is a great achievement to get Windows working natively. But the fun is short term. Lollies are great to eat now, but rot your teeth years down the track.

pipsqeek

asphotos
6th April 2006, 03:00 PM
the manager at mac centric chatswood isnt going to install bootcamp on any of his machines

its a beta, im not going to do that. he said.

i thanked him, and am now looking for a mac store in sydney with XP on a macbook pro to see the performance.. I guess he wasn&#39;t interested ina &#036;4000+ sale..

seems to be how mac centric treat all there customers. ive never had a pleasent dealing in that store.

forgie
6th April 2006, 03:03 PM
pipsqueek: What are you talking about? No serious developer is going to want to ditch OSX support because of this. VPC has existed for years, and some equivalents (not as fully featured admittedly) are already available intel macs. I don&#39;t see you whining and moaning about how VPC was the downfall of PPC macs. This is no different. It opens up options to a few people. Many people won&#39;t use it. Some will, and will be very grateful.

And yes, you are correct in saying it adds to Apple marketing plans. You say that people choose windows over any other OS.... this will only give people more incentive to TRY OSX. If they know they can fall back on windows, it makes more sense for a tentative switcher. What don&#39;t you get about this?

lavo
6th April 2006, 03:11 PM
One thing on the games developers - how many of the lastest games for the Mac *weren&#39;t* ports of PC games (from companies like Aspyr)? When was the last really original Mac game? WOW and Warcraft III are the only games I can remember from the last few years that were simultaneously released.

iMick
6th April 2006, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Graham@Apr 6 2006, 12:32 PM
November: Leopard comes out and people buy lots of Macs for Xmas.

After reading through all these posts and the varous news on the web, I have come to the conclusion that apart from being a toe in the water test on switching numbers based on windows compatibility, this whole thing just HAS to be to capitalise on the how vista is delayed till after christmas.

A week ago the after the vista delay news broke the internets was saying how all the PC box makers were pissed that they are going to miss out on &#036;&#036;millions because they haven&#39;t got anything shiny (vista) to run on their shiteboxes to lure people in to a purchase/upgrade. As macmate and co have mentioned, most computer users are oblivious to the tech and buy on price and "shinyness". How Harvey Norman can sell computers is my case in point. Now apple can sell to the lemmings something double shiny (unequalled hardware design and OSX) thats even shinier as it just happens to run XP&#33;&#33; They don&#39;t care how, just that it can. Makes the purchase more comfortable.

It has to be the reason, it will be like vista what?

thomas
6th April 2006, 03:22 PM
I just installed XP on my MacBook Pro (2GHz Core Duo, 1GB Ram, 256MB Radeon), and it runs great. Forget anything you experienced running XP through Virtual PC, this is just like having a brand new PC.

It even comes with all the drivers (the ATI Graphics options are impressive). My Bluetooth mouse worked instantly for example.

It&#39;s only Beta, and it&#39;s only a sign of things to come, but so far it&#39;s very impressive.

(Anyone else thinking in-built compatibility for Windows apps in OS X 10.5?)

paulharrop
6th April 2006, 03:28 PM
I&#39;m running XP pro on my17 inch iMac dual core at school. 128 Video Ram / 1 GIG Ram.

First impressions are FAST&#33;&#33;

It blows our other PC&#39;s at school away (including P4&#39;s).

Office starts up in an instant. The internet is only held up by broadband speed (256k at school).

My gaming nut 11 year old has just converted to Mac hardware after playing some of preinstalled games that come with XP.

I&#39;d like to see how some of the 3rd party stuff runs. I have had no problem with the dual boot and no hiccups and I&#39;ve been flicking back and forth all day between the 2 OS&#39;s.

If the 2 OS&#39;s could run at the same time at native speed then - Ahhh&#33;&#33; we may see that yet.

hawker
6th April 2006, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by thomas@Apr 6 2006, 02:52 PM
It even comes with all the drivers (the ATI Graphics options are impressive). My Bluetooth mouse worked instantly for example.
Something working in Windows. I do not believe you :blink:

mechcon
6th April 2006, 03:30 PM
anyone else thinking in-built chances of viruses from windows apps in osx 10.5? they&#39;re .exe&#39;s aren&#39;t they?

macmate
6th April 2006, 03:32 PM
what is gaming like? i mean real gaming.

the best thing to try would be Warcraft 3 or something.... as its both PC and mac and both on the same disk....


Ric

forgie
6th April 2006, 03:34 PM
For a windows virus to wreak havoc, it would need to be running in a full windows environment, not an emulated one. This means that WINE (and DARWINE) are immune to the vast majority of windows security problems.

This dual-booting thing would mean that windows is just as vulnerable as any other windows installation. Windows will see your OSX partition as an unknown partition, and most viruses won&#39;t touch it. That doesn&#39;t mean that they CAN&#39;T touch it, it just means that the ones that currently exist don&#39;t target a second OS partition.

thomas
6th April 2006, 03:38 PM
There&#39;s reports on the WoW Mac forum that it&#39;s running significantly better under XP. Doom 3 and FEAR were also mentioned as performing very well.

elSpike
6th April 2006, 03:46 PM
Gaming performance:

Doom 3 with High Quality graphics, 10x7 and 4X AA gives me a consistant 55fps.

That is awesome in anyones book.

Will let you know how halflife2 goes when it finishes installing.

elSpike out.

Edit: and I just remembered. Doom 3 isnt optimised for ATI drivers and Half Life is. I think we will see some big numbers under Half Life. Welcome to my new lan machine ;-)

hawker
6th April 2006, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by forgie@Apr 6 2006, 02:33 PM
pipsqueek: What are you talking about? No serious developer is going to want to ditch OSX support because of this.
We&#39;ll see&#33;

bombora
6th April 2006, 03:56 PM
From the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/05/AR2006040502402_2.html)

"Just having this option should end the uncertainty that some potential Mac switchers feel about the prospect of giving up every piece of software they&#39;ve known. That quasi-existential dread is gone.

Some lazy software developers might use Boot Camp&#39;s existence as an excuse to avoid developing Mac versions. But smart ones will write software for the operating system already installed, not the one that might be added later. Given a choice of running XP or OS X, how many people who have already bought a Mac really want to spend more time in Windows?"

Good point I reckon. Those that are questioning the fate of OSX after this move should probably have a bit more faith in it. Its a better OS. End of story. Being able to compare the two experiances on the same machine will only serve to highlight that, methinks.

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by bombora@Apr 6 2006, 04:56 PM
Those that are questioning the fate of OSX after this move should probably have a bit more faith in it. Its a better OS. End of story. Being able to compare the two experiances on the same machine will only serve to highlight that, methinks.
right on
i just spent an hour customising XP and at best it sucks.
explorer is so far behind finder.having a unified menu bar in OS X is a huge advantage.

i just dont see how someone could prefer XP in general.this is excluding games and 3rd part software

mwot
6th April 2006, 04:22 PM
Wow&#33;&#33; Now I, too, can run anti-virus software and spyware programs like all my other friends&#33;&#33; ;)

I think this is waaay cool. I agree with other sentiments: when running Windows or Mac OS X on the same machine, Windows ppl will eventually come to the realisation that they have been missing out all along ...

:thumbup:

hawker
6th April 2006, 04:24 PM
Everyone see the new RSS headline:


Apple stock up on Boot Camp release Apple stock rose 9% overnight after the company released Boot Camp which allows Windows XP to run on Intel based Macs

Money makes the world go round ;) Steve needed to get the stock prices up after he had to sell some to pay the tax man&#33;

lavo
6th April 2006, 04:26 PM
Interesting read from the Mac gaming companies:

Mac game companies comment (http://insidemacgames.com/news/story.php?ID=13177)

BTW, so much for the trickle down effect. Boot camp made it as a news item on a commercial radio station here this afternoon (94.5 for Perthites - biggest station in Perth).

thomas
6th April 2006, 04:31 PM
I don&#39;t think anyone who thinks this is a good idea is actually going to use XP for anything else other than things you can&#39;t do on OS X.

I&#39;m a mac man through and through, I farking hate windows (it makes no sense to me), but alas, sometimes there are times when you &#39;have&#39; to use it. Do I like it? No. Do I want to use it? No. Do I wish I didn&#39;t have to own a PC and a Mac? Yes, and now I dont&#39; need to.

If anything, more people are going to be buying Macs, and using OS X, because they now know that for those things they need Windows for can all by done on the Mac as well&#33;

Think of the bigger picture, this is a good thing. If you don&#39;t want to use it, don&#39;t :P

mechcon
6th April 2006, 04:35 PM
hey, is it me? or is this whole regime allowing windows to natively boot xp first rather than osx?

timothy
6th April 2006, 04:49 PM
windows is a computer game in itself. i love playing windows he he

mechcon
6th April 2006, 04:51 PM
seriously, windows boots up by default when you turn the machine on or reboot, anyone found a way to swap that around?

hawker
6th April 2006, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by timothy@Apr 6 2006, 04:19 PM
windows is a computer game in itself. i love playing windows he he
I was always thinking that windows played you?

iSlayer
6th April 2006, 04:53 PM
seriously, windows boots up by default when you turn the machine on or reboot, anyone found a way to swap that around?

yeah change the starup disk in sys prefs.the apple drivers install a windows control panel item todo it
or hold down option when you start the system

mechcon
6th April 2006, 04:55 PM
duuuh of course&#33;&#33;&#33; thanks islayer :D


*mumbles/grumbles as he hides that microshite from my eyes*

MacNut
6th April 2006, 04:58 PM
This set the cat among the pidgeons :rolleyes:

I teach more senior people how to use computers, both windoze and OSX.

Now I can use one machine and when they say "what is that cool PC (iMac), I can boot into OSX and show them what they are missing :D

Cooool

pipsqeek
6th April 2006, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by forgie@Apr 6 2006, 03:03 PM
pipsqueek: What are you talking about? No serious developer is going to want to ditch OSX support because of this. VPC has existed for years, and some equivalents (not as fully featured admittedly) are already available intel macs. I don&#39;t see you whining and moaning about how VPC was the downfall of PPC macs. This is no different. It opens up options to a few people. Many people won&#39;t use it. Some will, and will be very grateful.

And yes, you are correct in saying it adds to Apple marketing plans. You say that people choose windows over any other OS.... this will only give people more incentive to TRY OSX. If they know they can fall back on windows, it makes more sense for a tentative switcher. What don&#39;t you get about this?
No right minded Windows user (I just noticed it&#39;s an oxymoron) is going to pay &#036;3K for a Mac just so they can "feel" comfortable with "switching", When they can buy a Dell for &#036;899 with "better" specs on the hardware sheet.

This is my point.

The developers that will ditch OS X are the ones that don&#39;t bother developing much for it now. Adobe reckons it&#39;s a hassle. The gaming industry is now considering that you just buy PC games and install Windows on your Intel based Mac to use them.

I agree that the ability to run Windows on a mac is great. But I think this is going to hurt Apple. Switches don&#39;t spend &#036;3K to test the water. They decide that they switch, they switch, end of story. The theory makes sense, but in practice, you&#39;re stuck with an empty wallet, and a swish looking PC that happens to run OS X that was designed by Apple.

The usual Mac customers will have no choice but to buy an Intel mac, because that&#39;s what they are.

I don&#39;t like the idea.

pipsqeek

hawker
6th April 2006, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by pipsqeek@Apr 6 2006, 04:31 PM
No right minded Windows user (I just noticed it&#39;s an oxymoron) is going to pay &#036;3K for a Mac just so they can "feel" comfortable with "switching", When they can buy a Dell for &#036;899 with "better" specs on the hardware sheet.
I agree. However, I think Apple think Intel are going to treat them better than Dell etc and give them first dibs on everything (which might be true for a while, then I think they&#39;ll just get the same shit), the only thing Apple had going for it, was the OS, the fact that it could operate faster, but now, it&#39;ll be operating the same dull little tasks ;)

mechcon
6th April 2006, 05:07 PM
there is one disadvantage i can think of for a coder to code in xp natively... and i was told that coders in india use macs w/ virtual pc to run windows for coding, so if it crashes, its the os, not the entire computer

macmate
6th April 2006, 05:29 PM
people say developers won&#39;t stop making mac apps. i think thats crap because i think this is the first step to running widows apps in the make natively, that is when they will stop developing things.

i await with interest. if apple had microsofts market share they would have more control over things but since they don&#39;t, a lot of this is going to depend on the reactions of developers, this includes MS etc etc. and while current virus&#39;s won&#39;t effect the mac at the moment (even with visualization) it doesn&#39;t mean they won&#39;t get smarter. and when they do just wait. interesting times.

Ric