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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiark View Post
    You miss the point. And I doubt it could be explained to you.
    In your opinion, should a black man be treated differently from a white man under the law?

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by oddturtle View Post
    In your opinion, should a black man be treated differently from a white man under the law?
    yes, in certain situations, and not because he is black but because he comes from a different culture with different law and a 50,000 year history of culture that is almost unrecognisable to white middle class australia.

    but, as fiark said, i bet you dont get it!

  3. #43

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    well fiark won't explain what I don't get, so yeah, I guess that makes it impossible for me to 'get it' (and by this, I assume he means, agree with his position.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by fiark View Post
    You miss the point. And I doubt it could be explained to you.
    Hehe.
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  5. #45

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  6. #46
    Currawong's Avatar Currawong is offline Knowing beats guessing

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    People of different cultures are...different! Funny that. Having worked with people from many different countries and cultures, I did have to treat them differently, as individuals with different ways of thinking, because they were... different!

    I'm sure, oddturtle, if you met one of the "stolen generation" in person and listened to their stories, you'd feel different. If a member of a previous generation of your family had been harmed by laws enacted in Australia, I'm very sure your opinions would be totally different. But you wouldn't want to consider that, would you?

  7. #47

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    oddturtle, I am not going to explain it to you, because I would be wasting my breath.

    I used to think - "why should I apologise, I didn't do anything". In fact I used to think all the things you think. I also thought why should anyone be treated differently?

    Then I spent some time with the people who are doing the work to keep their culture alive, and then one day I just understood, I got it and I was immediately sorry.

    I can't explain it to you, you have to discover it, but if you are unwilling to face your own racism, and we all have it, then you will never discover what it means to say sorry.

    And that is all I am going to say to you because I know how you love to argue...it's your modus operandi. It would be repugnant to me to argue about this with you.

  8. #48

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    well my father is ethnically chinese. At one point in Australia's history, this group experienced a lot of discrimination. Am I my paternal grandfather? No, I don't define myself by the racial group I belong to.
    And my mother, would you believe, is a woman? Do I feel wronged because her gender was at one time treated unjustly?

    Different individuals are ... different! Funny that too isn't it?

    No doubt there are some terrible stories from actual people that were taken away. The government is responsible to these people that they have f'ed their lives up. So, it should be the responsibility of the government to apologise to these people and make right past wrongs. But an apology to a race - it perpetuates an 'us' and 'them' line of thinking.

  9. #49

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    fiark, I don't care for arguing with you. I think you just like to argue with me, and it is def not my reason for existance. I just stated my opinion on the issue. You replied to my post, stating I can never understand and label me a racist. In no definition of the word, can I ever believe I am a racist. I am so anti-racism you would look like Malcolm X.

    I love how you try to put down my posts at vain attempts for argument, because I take the opposite view. If you don't want to argue, don't reply to my posts.

  10. #50

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    There will always be people who disagree.

  11. #51

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    yep, lets get back to celebrating this cornerstone event in our history, a real turning point of bipartisan politics in support of a heart felt apology.


    SORRY.

  12. #52

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    Wot Galumay sed.
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  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galumay View Post
    Ausmac,

    not sure what it is - beyond the obvious that it is a stone tool. i will show it to some yolngu friends and see if they can identify it.
    It is an Ooyurka.
    A tool from a distant age with very little knowledge of its particular uses. Obviously a tool used in rainforest culture as that is where almost all of the twenty or so known to science have been found.
    The one in my possession is probably the rarest and most significant.
    The first and most interesting feature is the location it was found
    Secondly is that it is made of vesicular basalt when all the others are made from hornfels slate.
    Thirdly it is obviously of a far greater age than those studied by Richard Cosgrove.
    Again this leads to further speculation and scientific analysis of cultural practices and environment. Not to mention more specific knowledge of plant types and foods available(ie: environmental knowledge), trading routes, cultural practices. Most of which we have glossed over in our raping of this fine and very ancient land.

    Now that we have acknowledged our crime it is long overdue that we unearth all that was hidden about the original inhabitants of terra nullis.
    why are you reading this?

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by AusMac View Post
    It is an Ooyurka.
    A tool from a distant age with very little knowledge of its particular uses. Obviously a tool used in rainforest culture as that is where almost all of the twenty or so known to science have been found.
    The one in my possession is probably the rarest and most significant.
    The first and most interesting feature is the location it was found
    Secondly is that it is made of vesicular basalt when all the others are made from hornfels slate.
    Thirdly it is obviously of a far greater age than those studied by Richard Cosgrove...
    I'm very interested by its potential age but need some more information. You correctly identified it as basalt, although it is not vesicular. Features that have been identified by you, and I assume others, as vesicles are not, but pits left in the original tooled stone by the advanced weathering of fine grained clay minerals in the solid solution matrix. It is this feature that suggests some reasonable age.

    Please tell me where it (they) was (were) found.

  15. #55

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    thank you .. I left out the words "appears to be"

    It was found in this sand dune
    some three or four thousand miles from any other known ooyurka location. In a place where rainforests ceased long before the time we imagine Aboriginal people roamed this land.

    It is one of a collection of artifacts partly in my possession and mostly in the Whitton Museum. All of which were found in the above dune. The people who found them? Well the property owner is now in his grave. He donated the majority of his finds to the local museum. Working on the excavation with him at the time was a young Danish woman. She returned to Denmark in around 1950, taking four of the most precious stones with her, including the ooyurka. Recently after an accident, she is now aging she returned them to the source .. yes.. here. She wanted the family to return them to their history.

    and this is what I am doing.

    What I refer to is a significant area of ancient Aboriginal habitation which has been largely ignored as have most. No farmer wants people to know that the field he is ploughing contains burial sites or artifacts. This could mean that he does not get his crop or so he may think.
    The area this comes from is close to another site which was also mined for the same purpose .. garden or bricklaying sand. The other site was famous because when people put it on their garden .. ancient Aboriginal bones popped out.

    Thus this land was reluctantly returned to the aborigial population as a burial site.
    However the site from which this artifact was found and others may still lie.. is now out of family hands. Though I still have contact and rights, if I push the argument.

    Basalt of any type is found far from this site. Basalt of this type .. much further distant.
    The predominant surface geology consists of Devonian sandstone/conglomerate outcrops in a very weathered environment.
    why are you reading this?

  16. #56
    MrJesseRoss's Avatar MrJesseRoss is offline Bug Bard

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    I think I've said before that I feel no need for myself to say sorry, as neither I nor my ancestors had anything to do with what happened in Australia.

    However, the policies of our Government, no matter what their intentions were, benevolent or not, caused a massive amount of harm to our Aboriginal population, and this has contributed to a massive split between their people and the rest of the nation.

    The Government's refusal to apologise for the harm that its past policies caused has only helped to continue this split. It sent the message that they took no responsibility for its actions, and that there had been no wrong done. This showed great disrespect to those who were affected both directly and indirectly.

    An apology, though on a practical level it does nothing, is important in terms of showing respect and acknowledging that it did happen. Actions were undertaken that destroyed family and cultural ties - things that cannot be restored, and the least that the Government can do is apologise. Not on behalf of the people of Australia, as most of us were not involved, but on behalf of its previous parliaments.

    Much more needs to be done to restore trust between the two Australias. It's not going to be easy. But just like when you've attacked your little brother over something stupid, the first step is saying sorry.

    --

    The thing that surprised me most about this was realising just how long this policy of removal lasted. Even after doing a course in Aboriginal Issues at Uni last semester, and knowing that infamous fact that it was only in the 70s that they were even classified as humans in the census (instead of fauna), I didn't know that this stretched on into the 1970s. It was only seeing some interviews with people yesterday that I found out that there are people in their thirties that were taken from their families. It's not just one of those issues that affected people 50 or 80 years ago, this is a very recent issue.

    I applaud Rudd and the Government for making the apology. I also think it was important for Brendan Nelson to support the apology, as it, in some small way, made up for Howard's poor efforts to do anything to rectify the issue, and demonstrated solidarity with the Government. It was just sad how badly he messed it up. I think there's still some issues for the Liberal party to overcome.

  17. #57

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    A friend asked me tonight.. "did you say sorry?" I replied "why would I need to say sorry? Though I applaud the fact that those Australians who do have blood on their hands have been forced into this corner."

    er: re above.. the practice occurred up to and into the 1970's

    What most people seem to have missed is that the apology could never have been made if the squatters weren't forced into it by the workers.
    why are you reading this?

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by oddturtle View Post
    well my father is ethnically chinese. At one point in Australia's history, this group experienced a lot of discrimination. Am I my paternal grandfather? No, I don't define myself by the racial group I belong to.
    And my mother, would you believe, is a woman? Do I feel wronged because her gender was at one time treated unjustly?

    Different individuals are ... different! Funny that too isn't it?

    No doubt there are some terrible stories from actual people that were taken away. The government is responsible to these people that they have f'ed their lives up. So, it should be the responsibility of the government to apologise to these people and make right past wrongs. But an apology to a race - it perpetuates an 'us' and 'them' line of thinking.
    You have missed the point entirely.. It was the government of the day which took on the responsibility to apologise for the actions of previous governments which by the way were and still are made up of the people.

    Chinese people did very well out of Australia .. It was rather out of jealousy that pigatils were removed. In this action I am sorry that we did so .. but again it was not my family. Though we were there through all of these situations.. We did not act as others did.
    This should indicate where I am coming from.

    However this pales as an argument in the face of the Aboriginal fate.
    why are you reading this?

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by oddturtle View Post
    I don't support the apology, because why should aboriginals as a group get any special treatment?
    You've just hit the nail on the head. It's exactly because they were singled out as a group for 'special treatment.'
    half goon half god: The same should go for people shoving 'Mac' in their nick. Unless it's clever, NO.

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by AusMac View Post
    ... the practice occurred up to and into the 1970's...
    I remember as a kid, in suburban Melbourne, in the early 70's two aboriginal children at my local primary school (Mitcham, Victoria) who had been re located to the city for whatever purpose. In hindsight I'm sure that they were very far from home as they were very black (in a way that Victorian aboriginals generally are never not). It is a continuing source of emotional discomfort for me to think of how horrible we (collectively as school children) were to them; they lasted about 6 weeks never to be seen again. All I remember is the older girl would not wear shoes and her little brother cried. I'm guessing the emotional scarring they received at our hands is about a million times worse than my horror now at how nasty we were (kids can be so cruel).

    An apology couldn't even cover it.

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