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Kinda think you are totally missing the point. All those websites can switch to HTML 5. Rather then use a plugin, supply the content directly with the added bonus that content can be integrated with program and web solutions rather then boxed in by flash. Apple is thinking ahead, the other websites are just making do with what they have.Originally Posted by andoneo
Sure they can but what is the incentive for these businesses to do so, how would it benefit them ?
note the word "integrated" then let your imagination go wild.
Companies that fail to innovate often get left behind.
correction for dagrthesnide
Last edited by ruegen; 10th February 2010 at 02:27 PM.
oh, of course, "in-te-grated", now I cannot see why they haven't switched over already :P
Last edited by DagrtheSnide; 10th February 2010 at 02:32 PM.
Honestly I'm not the "spokesperson" for HTML 5 I'm really just skimming the surface of what it can do. I'm not here to come up with all the answers and solutions for separate companies, simply acknowledging what Apple is doing and agreeing with what they are doing with the little understanding and history that I have.
Like it or not the technology is not there yet. Half the HTML 5 things on this forum thread don't even work in Firefox....let alone Internet Explorer 6-7.
I used to think Flash was a goner when Apple turned on them and Microsoft brought out silverlight. But the reality is it's ubiquitous. And even Gruber admits this is a good reason why it represents a large proportion of crashes. Every single mac has it.
Flash creates a better user experience on the web. Below is a great and very contemporary example why and this kinda thing will never be viable to produce with HTML 5.
BioShock 2
Last edited by andoneo; 10th February 2010 at 03:29 PM.
maybe what you should consider, is that you may be a part of a minority.
a minority where your web experience would be "less" with flash gone.
with everything there is always some people who dont like the change.
but the LARGE majority of web users, once HTML5 is fully adopted, will not certainly not miss flash, and they'll wonder why their browsing experience just got so much easier, why their browser doesn't crash so much anymore etc.
i but to you also, once HTML5 is full implemented as a flash replacement, and flash is barely being used, you won't even miss it. right now you're just blinded by what you consider to be the 'awesomeness' that is flash.
lets bookmark this thread for 2yrs time and continue this argument then ey ;]
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Actually when studying multimedia & flash way back 10 years ago I knew this was coming even then. Back then it was great because pages took too long to load and flash was a great way of using vectors to increase viewing speed. But whenever you loaded more content and especially higher content the medium of flash just couldn't handle it. It worked ok back then but it doesn't suit the plethora of new devices that will eventually drop support for it. Why load flash as well as content when you can just load the content? Apple TV and iPhone both use content directly, and new TVs are coming out with internet viewing technology - tell those manufactures who want to customise their own viewers that they have to continuously support a plugin just to view content and you won't see much support for it eventually.
How has it created a better user experience? What does that mean? Note that what you think that means may not apply to all. Does your browser not crash or crawl while playing Flash content?
As for other aspects to the Flash experience, what about selecting text in Flash content? Resizing text to make it easier to read? Opening a link in a new browser tab?
I have to admit that I haven't seen a lot of browser crashing for me, but then I don't go to Flash sites very often, but I can vouch for the crawling. I use ClickToFlash and my browser experience has been a lot better.
John C. Welch has written a stunningly simple summary (NSFW) of the message that Mac users should be sending to Adobe. I think he's nailed what's wrong with Flash.
Last edited by Japester; 10th February 2010 at 03:36 PM.
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I think there's an argument to be made for cloud computing here. This kinda thing would only be possible on an iPhone or iPad by downloading an app which was coded in Objective C. Why bother when you can just have flash installed and can have this immersive experience instantly.
BioShock 2
People who advocate the death of flash are forgetting the internet is more than just a news feed or a minimalist communications network for geeks.
It's also a rich medium for entertainment and education or edutainment as some have said where things meld into each other and media comes to life with dynamic interactivity. Like that BioShock experience. Not a game but a very immersive marketing communication tool only possible with flash.
One of the things we are trying to explain * megaphone * is that you no longer need flash to do this stuff, with the bonus of far more integrated flexible immersive marketing.
Headline for you Ruegen
The Bioshock site is not possible with HTML. I don't think many would argue otherwise. They might but they'd probably charge 5 times as much for that type of content.
I clearly see your point of view. It's the same argument that flash developers, who rely on their knowledge and training of flash, continue to support it without wanting to change to something new for obvious reasons.
If your company solely relies on providing immersive flash websites you aren't exactly going to applaud the idea of changing to HTML 5...
Put it this way eventually HTML 5 developers will get more work than Flash developers when people realise how much difference it will make. Losing a contract to new competition isn't fun.
That is why the links that we have provided are a bunch of web developers coming up with solutions. You will find it will happen more often from here and faster.
That is already the case. Flash developers are a rare niche industry. HTML developers are much more prevelant. I work with both and quite enjoy the variety.
I need to pull my finger out and get some Objective C skillz. That's the gold mine.
so. are you a flash dev andoneo?
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I like to call myself a Cut and paste baboon rather than a code monkey.
I'm one of those annoying guys who makes websites in flash yes. I do HTML/PHP/MYSQL programming as well. I'm just not very good at it. I love it though. App development is a very gratifying experience when you get it it right. Mostly self taught so I'm quite proud of the flash/Web work I've done.
YouTube, Vimeo and Daily Motion have already enabled HTML5 video support. The others will follow. Funny or Die is a YouTube partner, so their videos are available in HTML5/H.264 as well. Hulu will be next. Got any more you'd like to list?
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
Try our new HTML5 player! on Vimeo Staff Blog
Dailymotion - Online Videos, Music, and Movies. Watch a Video Today!
Flash is proprietary.
HTML5 is not proprietary.
H.264 is proprietary.
This means that if a decent, non-proprietary video format comes along, everyone can switch to it. I wouldn't write OGG Theora off just yet.
I'd be willing to bet you that the iPad will not have standard Flash support for the next 5 years. Flash is becoming less relevant with each day that passes.
I agree with Japester: Jobs meant "best user experience", not "supports the most stuff". The iPhone/iPad doesn't support Java either, you know.
All I'm seeing there is video with click regions linking to other video. What's not possible in HTML5/CSS/JS?
Also, there's some other developments taking place:
WebGL - OpenGL ES 2.0 for the Web
Last edited by marc; 11th February 2010 at 11:42 AM.
I think making blanket statements like "Hulu will be next" is not exactly a compelling argument...and an "opt-in experiment for HTML5" on Youtube doesn't exactly sound like a major directive to change from the top echelons of power.
You have to remember Goggle have an invested interest in making Apple's iPhone appear to be substandard. What better way than to use the power of YouTube and video. On this point I would also refer you to my "monetizing video" argument. Flash owns this space and is becoming more relevant as an advertising revenue model every day contrary to what you might think.
I'm not writing them off but apparently theyre are not even in the same league as H.264 which is proprietary yes. At the rate they are going at they might be a decent alternative by 2015. Wouldn't bet on it though.
Theora vs. h.264
hmmm "not have Standard Flash Support" Maybe Flash lite then sir?
I can't argue with this kind of logic. When I can't view a website whether it's made in Flash, Java, Non compliant HTML whatever...it degrades my experience FULL STOP! The fact that apple chooses not to support my experience for not just myself but the majority of web users who don't hate on flash is the key point.
All I'm seeing there is video with click regions linking to other video. What's not possible in HTML5/CSS/JS?
[/QUOTE]
Your a coder right? I think maybe even an iphone app developer if I'm not mistaken. So you probably better at judging what is possible with HTML 5 than I am but I would say with all respect - I'd like to see you try.
Key word - Developments on that one. the web is an evolutionary world not a revolutionary one. Things change very slowly and embed very slowly. Flash has taken a long time to get where it is. Any other option may take just as long...but if it's superior bring it on I say.
I think it's amazing what apple has done with the iTunes/App store/iPod/iPhone ecosystem and specifically the time they've taken to revolutionise this space but more the phone market in particular. Truly remarkable.
A key question to ask yourself in this debate revolves around the future of media delivery. Would you back the streaming/cloud delivery method i.e Google and their cloud services....not attached to hardware
or the iTunes download method with the amazing ecosytem of devices and content that we all love and drool over.
I think that's the battle that will resolve this issue as Flash is embedded in Google strategy at least for the medium term.
You know what the good thing about this is though.....Microsoft aren't even on the playing field so they can't possibly win.
Last edited by andoneo; 11th February 2010 at 02:02 PM.
It just seems to myself, that the only people really arguing that flash isnt a dying tech is adobe, and flash devs.
Everyone else is keen for HTML5's full potential to be realised, sooner than later, and believes it is the next step in the webs direction.
I'm not saying apple is right in leaving flash out, as you say, right now, flash is something that is widely used through the web.
but, apple have always been a bit like that, they see something going in a direction, they like it, so they force their customers to head down that path. sure they might be two years early, or 3years early, but in the end, everyone else will follow suit.
there is no doubt adobe isnt scared by all this HTML5 talk, chances are they are working on some huge improvements (or at least trying) so they can try and convince the web dev world that leaving flash is not in their best interests. but if they dont get a hurry on they will be to late.
I work in a very prominent ad agency in melbourne, and our digital (web) department has recently been moving a large amount of their resources to exploring HTML5's potential, and away from flash.
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This always reminds me of the original iMac--what a bold move to exclude the floppy! It was before the floppy was truly irrelevant, but it sparked a whole USB industry that might never have developed if they hadn't had the balls to change direction.
They have a knack for leaving a sinking ship before it reaches the deck.
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